1. What do you think is the most shocking thing to Lenina and Bernard about what they find there and why?
2. Also, describe your most insightful observation after reading about John and Linda's life.
PS - did you notice the lines from Macbeth?!! I love that John's exposure to literature turns out to be the complete works of The Bard. It is also interesting that the Savages seem to be practicing some kind of amalgamated religion with elements of Christianity and indigenous Native American belief.
I thought about asking this question: Who has more in common with Bernard, John or Helmholtz? That would have been a challenging question.
48 comments:
I could cop out and say that Lenina and Bernard were shocked about everything (which is actually true). However, I think it was more the fact that the Savages actually survived--and perhaps even thrived, depending on one's views--without the need of what the "real civilization" needed to live. Bernard, whose thoughts were more individualistic and open than Lenina's, was less shocked by what they encountered, as he had been the one who wanted to go out to the reservation. However, he probably hadn't expected a showing of such deviation from the basics of his expectations; their ritual, for example. But Bernard kept his original intention of going there in the front of his mind and didn't let himself be overwhelmed by the Savages' differences. Lenina, on the other hand, was beyond overwhelmed. Linda's appearance, especially, traumatized Lenina; the civilized girl couldn't see how it was at all feasible for someone to fall into such dismal conditions. She was less open to the differences the Savage reservation implied.
I thought it was kind of strange that Linda actually kept John and raised him; while not altogether properly, at least she kept him at all. At times she was almost like a regular mother to him, though she had never been trained in such an area; perhaps the future society can't breed that out of humans no matter how it tries. Does that hold true for many other characteristics as well then? Linda detested that she had given birth to John, though. Why didn't her misgivings toward him override that maternal streak? Why was her conditioning not strong enough to completely counterattack what she ended up doing? More questions than a real answer, but that's just what I'm wondering about when I read about John and Linda. Plus, it was kind of funny that Linda painted such an enviable image of the outside world for John that he ended up placing it on a pedestal; Bernard, on the other hand, would like nothing more than to escape that society.
PS--I thought that was King Lear? ...Or maybe that was later on. Um... Never mind then...
And can I still answer that last question? I'd have to say John for the obvious reason that he and Bernard are both considered outcasts from their respective societies. John is too "civilized" to fit in with the other Savages, while Bernard isn't "civilized" enough. They're both rebels without causes.
Quality response, Lisa. I think you're right to raise so many questions regarding Linda's decision to keep John. It seems to me that several times in the book the characters, despite all of their conditioning, can't help but let their basic human nature come to the surface. For example in these chapters when the Director allows himself to remember what it was like to visit the Reservation--he gets lost in his own memory, even though he's been taught that the past has no practical value. When Linda keeps John, I imagine it is the same type of human impulse (for mother's to nuture and protect their children) that prompts her to keep him rather than kill him.
The references to Macbeth were, "out damned spot" and "rather the seas incarnadine"...both references to trying to free one's self from guilt, hinting that ultimately it was impossible to get rid of all the guilt for what we have done.
I see a connection here....
When Bernard and Lenina go to the Reservation many aspects of the life there seem to jump out and surprise them. There’s the fact that there are actually old people there and it is so, so dirty compared to where they live. Lenina is the most effected by the uncleanness, as least outwardly, but I think the most shocking thing to Lenina and Bernard is that there is a woman there who used to be one of them. Linda. Linda is an interesting character in that she still believes all of the “mantras” and ideals of the “Other World.” She still misses soma and doesn’t quite understand why people only belong to one other person. Lenina is hit the hardest by the woman because she is a female and maybe once had a life like Lenina. Linda is now wearing rags, she smells and she is definitely unclean in most aspects. She tells Lenina that everyone doesn’t belong to everyone else on the Reservations. Lenina is surprised at this, but I think she’s kind of been in shock for the most part of the conversation she’s had with the woman. Bernard may be shocked by Linda, and her son, John, but he sees them as an opportunity that will benefit him. He is shocked to find Linda but in a different way than Lenina: he can’t really believe his good fortune.
I thought that it was interesting how much John wants to be a part of the “Savages.” I mean even compared to the lovely life outside of the Reservation that his mother has painted for him, he still feels like he should belong with the Indians. He gets really upset when they exclude him from bonding activities like when boys become men. He gets rocks thrown at him and they laugh and make fun of the way he looks, but he still feels connected to them. They’re who he’s grown up with. Linda sees that he is more like him, and I think that this makes her sad. She was almost disgusted with herself for having a child, but I think she’s come to terms with it. She said she was thankful for his company. John may know how to read and may think himself to be more like Lenina and Bernard, but at heart, he’s still a “savage.”
P.S. – I don’t really know anything about Shakespeare, but I thought those lines were very well tied into the story. Although it was totally random that there’d be a Shakespeare book on the Reservation. Totally random.
In response to LWM::::
I also thought that it was incredibly off that Linda decided to keep John and raise him. That's an interesting question "maybe they can't breed that characteristic out of humans"...I mean after all of the conditioning that the people under the Director underwent in their sleep and such, you'd think that there wouldn't be a hick-up. Or maybe when people are put into situations, different characteristics come out. Maybe the people conditioning the Alphas and Betas, Etc. didn't take situational events into account.
I think that Lenina and Bernard are completely taken back by the culture shock. For Lenina, it’s every aspect of the uncivilized life that disgusts her. The dirty living conditions, the aging of the savages, and the raggedy clothes or lack of clothes. She is completely open with her emotions, repeatedly declaring that she wants to leave. She also starts sobbing after seeing a savage whip another until the point of drawing blood. She is frightened and foreign, and I think that she feels a sense of loneliness because Bernard is outwardly unaltered by the uncivilized culture. These are the initial set backs in Lenina’s perspective. While Bernard appears to be unaffected by the drastically different conditions of the savages, he is still judgmental and treats the uncivilized community like a science experiment. I think that the reason he acts to aloof to it all is almost a defense mechanism for Bernard to be able to keep his cool and carry out his original plans. I think that the most shocking event for both Bernard and Lenina was discovering John and Linda. Prior to their visit to the reservation, there was no knowledge of any savages being able to speak English and read or write. For Bernard, he could make the immediate connection between the Director’s story of the lost woman and the literate savages. Lenina was shocked at the appearance of Linda; her flag, her wrinkles, and her missing teeth.
I think that it’s interesting that the uncivilized environment and the civilized environment are at the two extremes and there is virtually nobody in between those two cultures except for John and Linda. Linda has experienced both worlds and desperately seeks to get back to her old life; however, she has never really given her new community a chance. She has constantly tried to fit her old ways into her new civilization and has ultimately been burned for it. Instead of embracing the change, she has become an alcoholic, mistreated her son, and slept around. This reflects the values of conformity and a collective society, at the expense of preserving herself. Linda has been so completely brain washed that she was unable to change her old habits and adapt to the new civilization. These events have led John to raise himself and learn from works of Shakespeare, directly applying these works to his life. John is probably the most closely related person to our society, so I think that it will be interesting to follow his journey throughout the story and see if he is able to conform to the civilized ways.
-SM
SM in response to GLS
I think that you make an interesting point about Bernard wanting to benefit himself. I agree with you and I also think that it's ironic. I mean Bernard is the person throughout the novel that has seemed to completely resist against the comformity and the practices of his community. However, when he found Linda and John his first reaction was to call the Director and when he talked to the Director he felt superior. This shows that even though it seems as if Bernard is revolting against "the system" he is really just as caught up in it as everyone else.
When traveling to the world of the “savages” Lenina and Bernard, I believe, had different ideas on what was the most shocking part. Lenina was just shocked that someone could live so differently as her. When she first arrived she kept saying that she needed soma to get use to the dirt, the older people, the “imperfections”. Bernard however I think was astonished and amazed that he just happened to find John who is the long lost son of the Director and now he realizes that he can get back at the Director and save himself from being sent away. I also think Bernard is shocked that John feels the loneliness that he feels. This is because all his life Bernard has felt that when you live in a world where everyone belongs to everyone you may truly have no one but and if somehow that would change then the loneliness would subside and knowing that John is lonely shocks him and makes him think that he might always be lonely.
After reading chapter 8 I really found it strange that Linda never really tried to conform and adapt to the lifestyles of the Indians. It showed that she tried to learn to weave once but that really was the only thing she tried to do. Obviously she realized that she couldn’t sleep with any man she wanted in that society when she was held down and beaten by the other women but she continued to do it with the men of the village. She also never tried to repair her or John’s clothes when they ripped and even blamed him for the reason she would never be able to go back to the new world. This is surprising because even though she didn’t want to get pregnant and wanted to go back I thought she would have tried harder at a life in the old world for John because there has to be maternal instincts at work otherwise she would have abandoned him at birth. John was made fun of and even stoned over the way his mother acts and still she didn’t change. All John ever wanted was to fit in and be a part of the world he lived in but the differences proved to be too big of a challenge to overcome.
I agree with GLS in that Linda has definitely shocked them and they find it interesting and scary at the same time how she has survived living in those conditions but I think Bernard is deeper than that. When saying that I mean that Bernard isn’t so preoccupied in how they live but more why they live because he is not so sure himself. Bernard wants to feel full and nothing he is doing is giving him that feeling. I also don’t think that John wants to be a savage. I think that if placed in the new world he will try his hardest to be accepted by the people of that world. I think John, like Bernard, feels empty and lonely and so he thinks that fitting in will make him happy.
A question just popped into my mind though: If Bernard feels so lonely and knows there is more to life than what his world allows for him than why is he scheming to get back at the Director who is going to take him out of that world?
KLP…
Lenina and Bernard, in my opinion, were most shocked that the savages have been able to live without the comforts of civilization for so long. The savages have been able to develop in to a functioning society without the same things that the brave new world needs in order to function “correctly.” In the brave new world, that of Lenina and Bernard, everything in nearly the same from day to day, you go to your job, go home, go on a date, go to sleep, repeat. In the savages world there is variation. One day you may be learning how to make pots, while the next you are doing a spiritual ritual, and also not everyone is considered equal, or a part of the same group. In the brave new world, everyone belongs to everyone else, while on the reservation people are left out from the group, like John with the boys his age. He is not a part of the group because of the way he looks and the way his mother is. I also think that Bernard and Lenina found the religion of the savages to be shocking. The savages fused animalism and Christianity together to get this form of spiritualism that gave reasons for why things happen the way they do, while Lenina and Bernard contribute all to his Fordship, and even praise Ford for creation and everything that happens in their society. However I believe all of these things were more shocking to Lenina than to Bernard. Bernard had started feeling that there was more to life that what the brave new world had put in to their heads, so he was more receptive and interested in all the different ways of the savages. Lenina on the other hand, couldn’t stand to see any one live in such “disparity,” or where things are not sanitary and orderly, so she was traumatized to see the world in such a way.
I am surprised that John and Linda’s relationship was able to last this long. Linda was used to things back in the brave new world where children were raised in laboratories and born in test tubes, so she wasn’t very capable of bring up her own child, however, she did try to do so. She wasn’t able to raise kids like the savages did, so John was different than everyone else and she still acted as if she was in the brave new world, by offering for men to come to her house whenever they pleased. For these reasons John was teased by the other children and not included in savage rituals because he was different that everyone else. Linda did try to raise John the best way she knew. She taught him about the brave new world, and how wonderful it was. She taught him proverbs of some sort, and taught him to read. Yet when she wasn’t teaching him things she was drinking with Pope and this made John somewhat angry to see his mother is this much joy and pain simultaneously. These are the reasons that I’m surprised to see that John and Linda’s relationship lasted as long as it did. I think it lasted this long probably because John knew that there was some sort of goodness in Linda’s heart, and that she really was trying her best, although sometimes it didn’t seem like it. John was able to see how hard his mother was trying, so he put up with the ridicule and being ostracized from the other savage boys.
KLP in response to LWM
I completely agree with you that Bernard was less phased, and more interested in the development of the savages’ society than Lenina. It’s quite easy to see how horrified Lenina was of the whole idea of not living in a place with order and certain standards for one to live by. Not to mention a world where everything is not perfect (i.e. the perfect looks that everyone had in the brave new world), which was why Lenina was so surprised to see the savages look the way they did. And now reading your post I do think that maybe the reason Linda tried to raise John, even though she was mad about giving birth to him and had never cared for anyone else in her life, was possibly because of the maternal instinct she had “programmed” in to her, the one that has been passed down from mother to daughter for years, even though she really didn’t have a true mother. Perhaps this maternal instinct will die out one day, since they people in the brave new world are not raising/caring for children, but Linda still has it because she is of an older generation.
Overall, Lenina and Bernard’s trip to the reservation is a surprising experience. Lenina and Bernard are used to their secure environment in the new world and are haunted by things such as snakes, ceremonies, and especially pain (the beatings). Once Bernard and Lenina enter the new environment they quickly feel lost and look for their soma. To me, soma is one the most interesting concepts of this new world. Whenever someone feels distressed or unhappy, they just pop a couple of soma. After the reservation, Lenina is so distress that she essentially overdoses on soma. This leads me to believe that the most shocking thing outside of the New World is life without soma.
John and Linda are clear outsiders of the Reservation. Linda, who is from the new world, got stuck at the reservation after giving birth to John. While Lenina and Bernard visit the reservation they see a ceremony taking place and are scared when they see a boy getting whipped as a form of sacrifice. John explains to Lenina his undying wish to become this sacrifice for the community. This is interesting to me how an outsider wants to get beat for this society he isn’t even a part of. I believe that John desires to be a part of something, since he has always been an outsider since day one of his life. Eventually, Bernard allows John to accompany him to the new world to see if he can fit in any better. It’s interesting how Bernard looks toward the reservation to escape from his reality, and how John does the exact same thing but he looks to escape the reservation. Things are starting to get interesting since Bernard has found out about John’s real father (the director) and I look forward to reading this week.
Jake B.
Jake B. in response to KAV
I'm suprised how John wants to get beat for sacrifice, but also feels lonely like Bernard. I also wonder what Bernard's angle is when he brings John (the director's "barbaric child") to the New World. Earlier, Bernard gets threaten by the director to be sent to Iceland, but now he has his unknown son in his care? Earlier, he is happy to be considered rebellious, but what is he trying to accomplish? Is Bernard trying to become part of the reservation, or is he trying to revolutionize this "civilized" world?
LJW
Overall it seemed that both Bernard and Lenina were shocked by what they saw at the reservation, but Lenina more so then Bernard. Bernard to me, seemed a little shocked by the ritual, and the fact that the young child was being beaten. However, Lenina seemed shocked by the entire trip. She seemed rather shocked by the ritual same as Bernard, but she also seemed very shocked by Linda's appearance. Linda was nothing like the people Lenina had seen back in the World State. Lenina didn't really understand how a woman so much like herself could just let herself waste away the way Linda did. Although Lenina seemed more shocked by Linda I feel that Bernard had a sense of shock that came from Linda, in the sense that she once lived the life he lived, but has come to be very different, but yet still interesting.
I found it very interesting that John wanted to be accepted in the Savages society. However, he still wanted his mother to teach him as much as she could about the World State. I also found it interesting that Linda was able to take care of John, like a mother in our society would since she came from the World State. I did not really expect her to be able to nourish and care for him, considering she was programed not to have feelings towards others. It also came as a shock to me that Linda seemed to want to go back to the World State, rather then this world that she is able to do whatever she pleases. Linda also shocked me by the way she told John about the World State, to the point that he wanted to go visit it.
I think that the most shocking part of the reservation to Bernard and Lenina is the discovery of Linda. Here is a woman who came from the world state yet she has become disgusting. The lack of technology has left her paralyzed however after giving birth she feared returning to the world state. She has become obese, dirty, and is missing teeth. She represents the weakness of living in such a technological age and is the outcome if society were to fall.
The contrast between the savage community and the world state seems to be the opposite of the time period of when the book was published. This was the time when science was really starting to separate from religion as evolution was being pushed to be taught in place of religion. The religious advocates at the time were the majority and looked down upon the few people who studied science they believed went against the bible. This futuristic society seems to be the opposite as the majority follows science like a religion and believe that the people who hold on to Christianity and Native American beliefs are savage and outcasts. John appears to be the middle ground of these contrasting cultures and unaccepted by either. He has grown up learning the culture of the “savages” but, influenced by his mother, been curious about the world state.
It is interesting that Bernard, a character searching to change the world state and become an individual, would meet John, a character who is an individual but is fascinated by the world state. They both find themselves seeking to be the other. They both, however, are considered misfits within their societies and think that being like the other is the way to gain acceptance. Helmholtz, however, has more in common with Bernard. While Bernard appears to be a misfit in society and Helmholtz is the perfect citizen they both share distaste for the status quo. Even though this distaste comes from different reasons they still live in the same community and have somewhat similar lifestyle, at least more similar than John’s.
Resonse to LJW
I like how they compared the differeces between how Lenina and Bernard took in different parts of the reservation. It was also good how they pointed out that Lenina's shock toward Linda came from the fact that she had once been one of them and to see what she had become it threw her back.
I had similar thoughts to LJW when they were discussing how John is a product of both worlds and seeks to fit into both. I like how they also mentioned their surprise at Linda being able to raise John eventhough she had come from the world state. I hadn't thought about how she had been conditioned to not show compassion to others yet she stayed with John after his birth and showed basic skills for caring for him.
LJW In response to KLP
I never thought to compare the two societies and how the two types of people are raised completely different. Looking at the ways of development was also a good touch. However I do agree that both were shocked by the way Linda looked and lived her life. I also think Lenina developed more of a shock towards Linda because she is a female as well and their lives seemed nothing alike.
I also find it interesting that you made a connection between the two relationships, Bernard and Lenina's and Linda and Pope's.
To Lenina I think the most shocking thing she found when her and Bernard went to visit the "Savages" is Linda herself. I think it was really hard for Lenina to take in the fact that Linda used to be just like her. She was a young women who lived in the "Other World." The fact that Linda and Lenina used to be so similar startles Lenina. It scared her to see what Linda had become. She no longer kept up her appearance, she was dirty, overweight, and was missing teeth. I think Lenina realized that if something like this could happen to Linda it wasn't that far of a stretch for Lenina to have the same fate. Also the fact that Linda was able to carry on life without the structure and technological advancements of the "Other World" seemed unreal. She couldn't really except the changes that Linda had to go through to try to live in a society with the savages. She had to give up the order and neatness of her original life and even benefits such as the somas. For Bernard, I don't think he was quite as startled. It's not something he sees in his normal life, but he is able to accept it much easier. I think the fact that Bernard does not completely fit into his society and does not accept everything in his society blindly makes it easier for him to accept other society's, such as the savages.
I found it interesting that while neither Linda or John fit into the savages society they took different approaches to coping with it. John spends all his time trying to fit in. He knows he is different. He won't fit into the"other world" and won't fit in with the "savages" but instead of closing off he searches for acceptance. He gets jealous and upset that the savages won't include him their rituals and wants so desperately to be included. It's interesting because his mother, Linda, does the exact opposite. She immediately becomes an outcast. She kept trying to hold onto her old society ideas. She wasn't used to the fact of having one partner, like the savages. Because she refused to at least try to fit in she became an outcast, and because she feels she can't return to her old society she settles for becoming an outcast.
It's just interesting to think of how they act so different. I think it's because Linda grew up in the civilized society she didn't want to accept it was gone and was close minded to the other societies. John however grew up around them so he only knows stories of other societies. It's all he knows so he needs to feel the need to fit in somewhere at some point in his life, while his mother already found that.
-CRK
The Savage society was clearly different from the World State. The filth, the rituals, the aging and disease, even Linda, a former World State citizen, were all very startling to both Bernard and Lenina. However, I think that the raw emotion the Savages openly displayed was most surprising to Lenina and Bernard. Bernard, already used to his passion acting out (i.e. when he wished he could yell at his companions for talking about Lenina like she was a piece of meat), is somewhat able to cope when he sees the different society. Lenina, on the other hand, is absolutely distraught. She cannot deal with the religion and rituals without her soma. When she meets Linda, she is shocked that a former World State citizen must experience disgrace, guilt, and remorse. And Linda is even more surprised that she can emote, too. During the ritual, Linda abhors the bloodshed, and she may even feel some empathy towards the sacrificed boy. The passionate frenzy the Savages show during their ritual scares Linda and Bernard; it is incredible that a society can thrive without soma to mute emotion. And it is incredible that without the influence of soma, they, too, can experience feelings.
John, a hybrid of the World State and Savage cultures, like Bernard, doesn’t seem to fit. While John receives some nurturing from his mother (which goes completely against Linda’s conditioning; can anything truly override the instinct and purity of a mother’s love?) he is an outcast from the rest of the Reservation. John is aware of his differences, but he still longs to be a part of a society, be it the Reservation or World State. He even learned how to read, so he could feel like a member of a group, any group. John’s desperation for acceptance illustrates human’s basest need for companionship. There is a feeling of insignificance that comes with not belonging; perhaps that is why the socialist society of the World State was first created. Neither Bernard nor John fit in their societies, but they cannot remain alone. And both have turned to Lenina. There is a beauty to the likening of Lenina to Juliet, a character unknown to World State, because Lenina and John truly are from different backgrounds. And John’s constant quoting of the eloquent Shakespeare stands stark against the conditioned phrases Lenina frequently says. It will be interesting to see how John and Lenina’s relationship plays out, for John grew up in the monogamous, savage society whereas Lenina knows that “Everyone belongs to everyone else.”
PS – I caught the few Hamlet quotes (“Nay, but to live…” and “When he is drunk asleep, or in his rage”) and I also caught the two Romeo and Juliet quotes, but where was the Macbeth? The quotes certainly fit the situation and revealed John’s guilt and resentment. And the fact that John is quoting Shakespeare once again shows his desire to join a ‘civilized’ society.
I believe the most shocking thing that they learn is how un-accepting the Indian culture is to their way of life, I know it was to me. They same can be said for Lelina and Bernard’s society; however I don’t think their own discrimination and lack of acceptance are known to them yet. Mostly this pertains to the Indian’s treatment of John and Linda. They are basically racists, completely isolating John and Linda from their society, stoning them whenever they tried to interact with them. But, there lies a discrepancy in this isolation with the, for a lack of a better phrase, booty calls the men seem to have with Linda (maybe not so much now as in the past). So the question is what is their role in the Indian society?
I find it odd that even though John is constantly shunned and abused both by his mother and the society he lives near, not really in because of the whole isolation thing, and yet he doesn’t hate them for what they’ve done. I personally would be pissed about being so often mistreated, not to mention stoned. He still seems to try to fit in, desiring to take part in the society, even be a sacrifice to the crops. Does he believe they would eventually accept him if he persists enough? John’s persistence is the most intriguing thing to me for that fact.
When Lenina and Bernard arrive to the Reservation they are both shocked. It is a disgusting place completely different from what they are used to. I think they are surprised that there is a different culture still living. Their rituals and customs are so different from those of World State and I think it is almost scary for Lenina. She responds in such a disgusted way and I think that is because she is scared that this other culture is alive and out there. She has been conditioned in an entirely different way and believes that the World State’s customs are the means of survival and the fact that another lifestyle is out there scares her. I don’t think Bernard is as shocked, I think he was more curious. He is the one that wanted to go to the Reservation in the first place so he was a little more open-minded. I think Linda really scared Lenina; the fact that she had once been part of their culture and now was living in this filthy manner was a shock.
John and Linda live an interesting life. They don’t live like anyone else described in the book. It’s interesting because Linda has lived in both cultures, she has been in the World State and with the “Savages”, and John isn’t really accepted by a culture. He has never been outside of the Reservation and the Savages won’t accept him into their culture. I feel bad for him because it seems as if he doesn’t really belong. It’s interesting because he has heard all of the stories from Linda of the World State but still wants to be part of the “Savages.” It’s like our culture; we conform to the society we live in. Everyone wants to fit in and feel like they are a part of where they live and I think that is what John is doing. I am interested to see what John actually thinks of the World State.
I think that for both Lenina and Bernard, the most shocking thing was to meet John and Linda in the reservation. Since they never thought of seeing a civilized person in the reservation, meeting John and Linda must have shocked them in many different ways. Linda was probably very surprised by how Linda looked since she was old and fat, and Bernard was surprised to find out that Linda is the women the Director talked about. Everyone in the reservation was supposed to be savage-like and cruel. But Linda and John were different and that was why they were not accepted to the Indian community (although part of it has to be the fact that Linda slept with many different guys).
For me, it was very interesting that Linda taught John English and told them some stuff about the World State. And the fact that Linda kept the way of living her life-conditioning-and slept with any men she pleased which is not the way it goes in the reservation. Considering that Linda was very different from the people in the reservation, it really surprised me that they did not kick her out of the village because she got beaten by a woman for sleeping with her man. After all, the people on the reservation may not be that savage-like. Although they still seem susceptible toward John, there is something to say about them keeping John and Linda within their community. And also, if we go back, they saved Linda’s life. It is also curious if anyone else found out about John and Linda. There must be someone who visited the reservation between the visits of the Director and Bernard. I wonder if anyone else saw John and Linda at the reservation and question themselves since Linda is ‘civilized’ woman.
p.s I thought it was very interesting to see how John uses his literature knowledge into the life. and also, the village people seem to have some kind of religion of themselves which resembled Christianity since they had a man on a cross. And they had an eagle too, which is Native American belief.
In response to SS:
I liked how you related John and Bernard. I hadn't really thought of that how they both don't fit into society but each still try to. What do you think John is going to think of the World State? I mean Linda told him all of those stories, it's going to be a shock for him. I liked your comments on the relationship between John and Lenina. How do you think their relationship will develop? They are from completely different worlds but sometimes opposites attract.
KMR
Like other people have said, I think that Bernard and Lenina found almost everything shocking. Mostly I think they were very shocked by the sacrifice and the fact that even though these people are “savages” they are surviving and doing well. Lenina seemed to be more shocked than Bernard probably because Bernard doesn’t see the World Controller in the same way Lenina does. I think Bernard almost admires these people because of how much freedom they have and the fact that they can be themselves and not be punished. Lenina couldn’t look past everything that was different between her and the “savages” and because of this she hated being at the reservation.
After reading about John and Linda I found it very interesting that Linda was a “normal” mother to John even though she had never been tough how to be that. I also though it was interesting that they never returned to the World Controller but I guess Linda was very embarrassed and didn’t really know what to do. She definitely wouldn’t have been accepted back and even thought John in an outcast at the reservation it could be much worse if they went back.
KMR in response to SMT
I agree with you that Bernard and Lenina are surprised that the culture is doing ok and surviving. I think that this was a wake up call to Lenina in the fact that there are people that don’t follow all these rules and aren’t told what to do by the World Controller and they are surviving just fine. For Bernard I think it supports his thoughts that the World Controller may not be right with the things he does and the ideals that they instill in to everyone.
In response to KMR:
I didn't even think of Bernard visiting the savage reservation because he wanted to find an example of survival without the World Controller. Although I'm not sure that was his true intention for visiting in the first place... I do question his real reason. He's curious, yes, and he knows that the Director lost a woman there, but that wasn't why he first asked for a permit. Was he just playing it by ear and going with the info he continued to gather?
But then I also wonder why Bernard asked Lenina to come along too. Surely that's not the ideal for a romantic date or anything? But maybe it was like a showing off kind of thing. He wanted to show that he had the power to go to such dangerous places and maybe he thought it would impress Lenina or something (which was dumb thought, if he did think it).
And then after Bernard meets John... Does he feel an instant connection? Does he realize how the two of them have stuff in common? It makes me wonder about anomalies like Bernard. If the future wants a perfect, unthinking society so badly, why doesn't it exterminate all the free-thinkers like Bernard? Why let people like him go free in society? Sure, they have islands for people like him, but wouldn't it be easier to just kill them? It's kind of a depressing thought, but I think it's something this society Huxley paints for us would resort to.
Bernard and Lenina are both of this other world where they have never seen disease, old age, nor blood and I think experiencing a totally "bakwards to their understanding" society was the most shocking thing to them. They were especially shocked at the sight of blood of the sacrifice for rain and Bernard at John's scar. Even Linda whom has lived among these people still is appauled at the sight of blood. They were shocked because they don't really understand true suffering and what that looks like. They've got it made just like we do when it comes to the provisions we take for granted. Even Linda talked about not having hankercheifs so one could blow their nose without making a mess.
When morals (the difference between right and wrong) are defined by humans, good is never a result. This concience that was formed as a kid where you were taught what was good and bad caused only hate and predijuice of people not like them and made people like Linda and John feel lonely. Linda, a beta mother wasn't allowed back in because she was a mother. These people think the idea of parents is totally immorale and rejected her from her own home. As a result, John was born of a woman whom all she knew was how to manage a Fertilizing room, not how to raise a kid, and as a result, John became a depressed and rejected child who pretended to crucify himself as an atonement for the sadness caused by others.
This is not morality.
A responce to CRK's initial thoughts
I thought it was interesting about how you contrasted the characters of John and Linda. Even though Linda went straight to being an outcast, she still tried to find happiness in what she knew by sleeping with the men of the other women in that society.
I like how you talked about John wanting to fit in, but he is stuck inbetween two societies and can't fit in, but later he decides to become more like a rebel. He went up those mountians himself without the other guys. Not out of a want to fit in, but for a self assurance and sort of a superiority among the other boys. When Lenina and Bernard first met him, he was saying he could have gone around 10, 15 times compared to the 7 times that one kid did...
In Response to B Schill:
I agree that the Savages’ complete unacceptability of John is harsh, but I doubt that that the World State would be any more accepting of such an anomaly. Even our society can be quick to shun those who don’t fit in. But it is odd that Linda functions as a part of the Savage society more than John because Linda is the one with the World State conditioning; she was a decanted baby. Maybe this conditioning allows Linda easily mesh into her prescribed ‘role’, no matter what that role is. I also think that John’s literacy does more to keep him isolated from the rest of the Savages than accepted by them.
I agree that John’s persistence is intriguing, but I think it goes back to the idea of isolation and acceptance. Humans are social creatures; they can’t function completely individually. I like how John turns to Shakespeare when he finds no human companions.
in response to GLS.
I totally agree with you about the most shocking thing to Lenina. Lenina was definitely surprised by Linda and her appearance as a woman in civilized state. I can see where you are coming from the Bernard's aspect that he could not believe his fortune to find Linda and John on the reservation. However, i think Bernard was more surprised by just the fact that Linda was alive and how she changed from what he heard from the Director. But if i had to choose who was more surprised, it would be Lenina. Bernard expected the uncivilized-savage-like behaviors at the reservation. However, Lenina never expected to see things that she saw. She might have known that they will be different, but not that much. On one hand, i question, was Bernard surprised at all? He expected to see different people and uncivilized society on the reservation. Also, he heard the Director's story right before he went to the reservation. i wonder if he thought of possibility to see women the Director was talking about (which is Linda).
Response to KMR
I agree that Lenina and Bernard were very surprised that the savages were able to survive. I agree with the fact that Lenina was more surprised as well. Your comment made me think, she's probably more surprised than Bernard because she is also more dependent on the ways of her civilization. Bernard is always hesitant to follow the ways of society, like taking soma. It's his questioning ability that made it easier for him to accept. I think he brought Lenina along because he sees her as too dependent on their society. I think he was expecting the society to get along fine and wanted Lenina to see the same thing, in hopes it would open her eyes some.
CRK
B. Schill in response to SS’s response
I tend to see that Linda’s conditioning could only lead to the role she has in the savage society, she was ill-suited for anything else. She was nearly ignorant of anything pertaining to subjects outside of her fields. That invariably leads to her being incapable of weaving, or doing other things in the savage society to earn herself a place among them. It is almost like the World State is conditioning its inhabitants to be incapable of living anywhere else. Perhaps it is a conspiracy of its leaders to prevent their methods of living from spreading to the rest of the world by making their inhabitants incapable of surviving outside the State.
Lenina and Bernard were initially shocked by the savage's lifestyle. Neither of them were used to seeing such things as old people, babies and mothers, and the terribly unclean conditions they had to live in. It seemed that what really got to them were Linda and John. The thought of someone who had been raised in the brave new world turning into such a repulsive and unhappy person touched Lenina and Bernard much deeper than the smaller things they had seen in the village. The idea of turning into something like that and being cut off from their world made them uncomfortable. When Bernard asked Lenina if she would like the intimacy of being a mother she was repulsed and asked how Bernard could even think such a thought. I can see why the world controllers wouldn't want very many people from the 'happy' society visiting savages. It's something that inspires people to think about where they might of evolved from (in a societal sense).
Regarding John and Linda:
The story told about them was very easy to believe. I am a bit surprised though, that Linda wouldn't change any of the values she had learned in her sleep. It seems like after being gone so long she might've forgotten about some of those lessons, but she starts reciting them right after she meets Bernard and Lenina. Also, I thought it was a good idea to make Bernard and John have something in common. They both know how it feels to be ignored.
Response from H.A. to CRK
I thought that your analysis of Lenina's feelings at the savage reservation was really insightful. I agree that Lenina feels uncomfortable by Linda's presence because she knows that Linda was once exactly like her and to see one of her own kind turn into such a monstrous person not only physically but mentally; it was difficult for her to look at without feeling insecure about her own safety and future. I think Lenina is distraught knowing that not far from the perfect world she lives in, is this savage, unorganized, unsterilized Reservation.
Jon Clark
I think that Bernard and Lenina were shocked to find that there was a once civilized women living among the “savages”. I think that Lenina was obviously more appalled then Bernard at the idea of living among those people and she kept going back to child birth and how that in itself made her unclean in her eyes. I think that Lenina has definitely been more sucked into society then Bernard and because of that she doesn’t think much of Linda and John. Bernard almost seems to think like the savages think but he tries and acts the way the outside society acts. He is stuck between both worlds and I think that he is going to have to choose a side and might end up becoming a savage himself. I thought that it was interesting that Linda was still socially accepted in the savage’s community after she became pretty much a prostitute. I thought that the story about John and reading was interesting and I was a little surprised that the savages seemed to have everything stripped away from them and have no technology whatsoever. I wasn’t surprised that John was a social outcast in the community because I think that the savage’s society revolves more around tradition and heritage rather than the values that his mother taught him from the society outside.
Jon Clark
I think that Bernard and Lenina were shocked to find that there was a once civilized women living among the “savages”. I think that Lenina was obviously more appalled then Bernard at the idea of living among those people and she kept going back to child birth and how that in itself made her unclean in her eyes. I think that Lenina has definitely been more sucked into society then Bernard and because of that she doesn’t think much of Linda and John. Bernard almost seems to think like the savages think but he tries and acts the way the outside society acts. He is stuck between both worlds and I think that he is going to have to choose a side and might end up becoming a savage himself. I thought that it was interesting that Linda was still socially accepted in the savage’s community after she became pretty much a prostitute. I thought that the story about John and reading was interesting and I was a little surprised that the savages seemed to have everything stripped away from them and have no technology whatsoever. I wasn’t surprised that John was a social outcast in the community because I think that the savage’s society revolves more around tradition and heritage rather than the values that his mother taught him from the society outside.
KAH
I think the most shocking thing for Bernard and Lenina when they visited the Savages was how primitive the people acted and lived. They were surviving in the most basic ways. When Bernard and Lenina got to the reserve, the first thing they experienced was a ritual sacrificing a young male in order to get rain for the crops. Bernard and Lenina were not sure of the significance of the ritual so they were quite startled to see this happening.
It surprised me that when reading about John and Linda, that Linda recalled so much of her life before the reservation. Her previous life came immediately back to her and it was almost like she had never been gone. It also surprised me that John was so eager to go back with Bernard and Lenina. I understand that he feels like he doesn't fit in with the people of the reservation but its interesting to me that he wants to leave the one place that he has lived his whole life.
KAH in response to TAS
I completely agree with what you are saying about the world controllers not wanting more people to visit the reservation because of how different the Savages ideals and values are than that of the people like Bernard and Lenina. Also, when you brought up the point that Lenina was disgusted by what Bernard had asked her about being a mother, it became so much more evident how drastically different the 2 worlds were not in just the physical sense but in the mental mindset of the humans living in each world.
TKG
I think that Lenina and Bernard were most surprised to see how these “savages” lived. When coming from the “civilized” world, and seeing for the first time people living by antiquated traditions, partaking in strange rituals, and living in an overall un-sterile environment, I can easily see how the whole experience can be rather unsettling. In addition to that, not having the Soma tablets, for Lenina in particular, which they seemed to rely on to relieve the slightest discomfort, couldn’t have helped the shock of the matter. This whole reliance, seems to remind me of the readings we did about the 1950’s (I believe it was the ‘50s), in which problems were all taken care of internally, and sometimes were dealt with through the use of drugs. Regardless, to see something so different, which in this case happened to be how the “savages” lived, is obvious cause for unease, and is such a shock to try to truly comprehend the reasoning behind the way a group lives and survives. As for John and Linda’s life, it seems like it was consistently met with hardship, primarily in the form of abandonment. From the description, they were constantly outcast, and looked down upon by the society of “savages” because they acted so differently, and had conflicting standards, which seemed to really exploit the difference in the values of the two societies, as well as the reactions to the difference in those values.
TKG in response to CRK
I find the comparison you made between Bernard and John very interesting. It was something that I hadn’t put together before, but seems to makes sense. When it comes to that comparison, there are obviously several differences, but once you move past those, I agree, and I do believe that the two are faced with similar aversion within their respective societies. Despite the many striking similarities, I think one aspect of the comparison, I would have to disagree with is the standing of each within society. John seems to be completely outcast by the “savages,” because of where he comes from. However Bernard on the other hand, despite being classified as slightly off-kilter by the other members, he seems to still retain some of his social standing. I believe, however, that part of that may be as a result of him being an alpha, which may be preventing him up to this point from being fully outcast since he is that member of the upper caste.
Lenina and Bernard seem to be disturbed by two opposite things in their new found culture which is fitting, as both know their own civilization from completely opposite viewpoints. As a mainstream member of society, Lenina is completely content with her everyday routine. She lives in a world that takes care of her—even the slightest mental/emotional conflict can be solved with a ration of soma. Never before has she seen pain, suffering, or endurance like that of the Malpais people—coming face to face with such feelings is a shock to her. Her conditioning doesn’t allow her to understand that such rituals she observes are actually the people’s way of coping.
Bernard, however, is shocked in what almost seems to be a positive experience for him. Upon meeting John, he is finally able to find a true outcast (one who is both mentally and physically a misfit unlike Heimholtz). Like Lenina, Bernard doesn’t necessarily understand the ways of the Malpais people, but can still see one basic theme; who they are and what they do make them a group—a group that one outsider (John) can never become part of.
After learning the story of John and Linda’s life, it becomes evident how crucial the new characters are to the plot. Never part of the pack, John has always dreamed of living in London, a place where he believes he can be one of the people. Always feeling inferior, Bernard sees John as his key: with this absurd glitch in his human’s kind, he will finally have something to make him special and finally bring him the respect of his peers. Both men need each other to achieve what they think they want most.
KWY
Also-i thought integrating shakespeare into the chapters about the "savage" society was actually most reflective about the "civilized" world. I think of shakespeare as a representation of human emotion and relationships. If related to the "savage" society, it must mean that the opposite world (the "civilized" one), must NOT possess these qualities.
KWY response to TKG
I thought your comment relating soma to the behind-the-scenes problems we learned about in the 50's unit was really interesting and original. In terms of "exploiting the difference in the values of the two societies" it made me wonder--what would a member of the "savage" society believe the purpose of life is? how would that compare to the purpose of life for a "civilized" civilian?
KWY reponse to KMR
Personally, I thought Linda acted in ways very different from a "normal" mother. She came from a world where she was completely dependent--be it for her food and shelter or other castes to do jobs she was not made for. Thrust into a world where she is responsibile for herself, Linda describes her experience with words dripping in self-pity. However, when her defenseless child reaches out for her help--a person of her own blood in her own situation (dependency), she denies him.
1. I think what Lenina and Bernard find most shocking about the Reservation is the "savages" lifestyle itself. As soon as they arrive, they witness a community celebration of pounding of drums and a youth walking into a pile of writhing snakes where a man whips him, causing him to bleed and eventually collapse. I know that if I had come out their secure society to see this it would probably be one of the most shocking things I would have ever witnessed.
2. It seems as though John and Linda live in a state of constant exile from both the World State and the community that lives in the reservation. The savages never really accept John or Linda as part of their community. John, who so desperately wanted to be the sacrifice for the savages, was refused and is not allowed to take part in their rituals. Linda, after starting a new life in the village, slept with any man she pleased, which some women beat her for.
Response to KAH by JLS
You said that it surprised you that John was so eager to go back with Bernard and Lenina, but it didn't really surprise me at all. John has been seen as an outsider his whole life by the savages, even though he desperately wanted to fit in, and has heard stories of the "perfect world" that his mother used to live where everyone has their own role in society. It doesn't surprise me that he would want to live in a place where he may stand a chance to fit in.
Lenina and Bernard were kind of taken aback and surprised by most of the surroundings. The savages survived which was surprising and they did well too. Bernard wasnt nearly as surprised as Leninia, because he thinks more individually than she does. I give Bernard credit because he stayed focused and didnt let his intentions become unclear. If only the same could be said for Lenina...she seemed somewhat overwhelmed. It was hard for her to understand how someone like Linda could live in such bad, or different conditions. I dont understand how someone like Linda can take care of John when they arent taught motherly insticts. To me this is somewhat fuzzy and makes the books principles seem inconsistent. Lindas explanations of the outside world to John make him glorify it big time in his mind.
I agree with Kirk about Bernard and Lenina being so shocked or startled being in this world of things they are not used to at all. I think I would be the exact same way if I was somehow transported into an odd dimension of some sort. I like how Kirk pointed out the hankerchief comment by Linda. Its a pretty extreme life when you are depressed because your mother is inable to be...well...a "mother". This brings up an obvious flaw in this world. People aren't able to multitask in life or able to do certain things outside their skill set. Just makes you wonder if our "real life" was like this...
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