I really love this novel. There are so many questions to ask, but honestly I just want to thrust my opinions out there and see what you guys think of them. When I ask questions I can't share my opinions! Maybe I'll just start answering the questions I ask and pretend to be a mysterious student with the initials mrw.
Choose one of the following ideas to comment on:
The Savage (John) fills his solitude with literature, specifically Shakespeare. The citizens of the "brave new world" don't even have solitude, and they find rejunivation with soma and the direct pursuit of immediate pleasure. What is it about the literature that the Savage NEEDS? It seems that he thirsts for stories the way that the citizens long for drugs. Is there something that a story, and only a story, can provide a human being???
OR
If everyone is supposed to be happy, why does it seem like Lenina isn't? What has caused her to be unhappy and what is Huxley trying to say through her unhappiness?
OR
Why won't the Savage sleep with Lenina and do you condone his actions at the end of Chapter 13?
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47 comments:
I don’t think that the Savage (aka John) slept with Lenina because he finally realized what she was. He pretty much fell in-love with her at first sight because she was so different to what he’d been used to, so perfect looking. I think he like the idea of her more than who she was as a person. Also, he wanted to have a long-term relationship– like marriage – with Lenina, because that is how the culture woks that he grew up in. That’s, unfortunately for John, not how it works at the Centre. Lenina, after meeting John, sees him like she sees the other attractive, charming boys. The only different is that he hasn’t approached her about getting together like the other conditioned boys do. He’s something that is temporarily out of her reach and that makes her want to sleep with him more. When they finally do meet and Lenina throws herself at him, John is overwhelmed. She didn’t realize that having sex wasn’t a big deal. I think Lenina being so forceful and not loving him like he wanted her to reminded him of his mother and all of the men she slept with. He didn’t want to be a part of that.
Calling Lenina a “whore” and hitting her, I don’t think was a very good decision, but John was incredibly upset and didn’t know what else to do. He’d seen violence growing up and even though he might have known it was wrong, he couldn’t stop himself. I definitely do not condone his actions, and I was actually a bit confused at his outburst. I’m thinking he must be really psychologically unstable at the moment with his mother sick; he’s in a new place; and people think he’s a specimen to be probed and looked at like an animal in a zoo. He feels trapped and his emotions finally go the better of him.
My post was in response to prompt 3! :)
Prompt 1:
Here's the thing: John needed something to occupy his mind the same way that the people of the "civilized" world did. But instead of resorting to the drug soma, since that was a little short in supply on the reservation, John had to turn to something more readily available. For him, that was the literature that his mother provided him with and the other literature that he was given. Soma allows people to take a vacation from real life and let their imaginations take control of their minds; literature in some ways does the same thing, only without the adverse effects of drugs. Literature makes drugs unnecessary; it paints a world with words where soma does it with its drugging.
And yet it really says something about the civilized society that John also craved entertainment on the savage reservation. That was what the soma did for the civilized people; even manufacturing people could not breed that need out of them. So in reality, the people of the future aren't so much different from us after all. They still have that same need that John, an "uncultured" person, has. Does conditioning really do that much for people subconsciously? Not when it concerns basic human needs; humans crave entertainment. Technology of the present adds to that image.
(May add more later if I think of anything else...)
In response to GLS:
Yeah, I think that it was because John had set Lenina up on a pedestal versus the other girls that he had known. She was so sophisticated, so different, so exotic that he was instantly attracted. However, it scared him when he found out that she was something like his mother rather than this mysterious, untouchable creature--she was far from untouchable. Yes, he did think and hope that she was an outlet, something different, from the rest of the new society he was suddenly thrust into. When she turned out to be the same as all the others, he found that he hated the new world. He found nothing good in it because everyone was the same to him; his individuality itself was being questioned. And, unhappy at such a prospect, John struck out. (It's not Lenina's fault that she's a...whore...though. Poor girl.)
P.S. In regards to Prompt 2, which I also have a little thought for...
Lenina wasn't really unhappy. She was just wrapped up in her confusion, about the guys she associated with, which created a sense of dissatisfaction; Bernard was the truly unhappy one in their world. Lenina, on the other hand, if she was indeed "unhappy," must have felt so because she knew she was supposed to be happy, which then led to the fact that...she wasn't. But like I said, I don't think she was really unhappy--especially not compared to the other messed-up people in the book. As happy as that sounds.
Prompt 1:
In this book John does seem to thirst for literature. I feel that he is in need of a way to express himself. In psychology this year we learned that you can only think about something when you have a word for it. For example, say you came across a ball and you have never seen one before but you don’t have a word for round or bounce. You really wouldn’t be able to really think about the new object; with John these new objects are feelings. Earlier in the book when John found his mother in bed with Pope he was angry but didn’t fully understand that emotion because he did not have a word for it but when he remembered a passage explaining anger in his Shakespeare book he then understood how he felt and tried to hurt Pope. John is just trying to find who he is from his personal thoughts in feelings. The citizens are having the same problem but are choosing a different way to handle it. They have not been taught the words sad, lonely, angry in a way that they can pertain to human emotions. This is probably because in order to control them the world controllers need them to just be content with what the world is and so because they do not have access to such literature that John has they turn to soma which just makes them numb to the world around them. Only a story can provide self-realization to a human being because they take you into a story can require you to relate or at least see the world from different views and in doing so one can be able to see why they act the way they do. This is something we realize today as well. Find yourself in a book.
In response to GLS. I thought that John was upset that Lenina did not understand what he wanted. He tried talking to her the best way he knew which was to recite fragments of Shakespeare but she still was not able to understand. I think she couldn’t because she didn’t completely understand where he came from and the wrongs he saw in her perfect society. I also think that the act of violence and dancing was not because he was unstable but because in his society that was how they expressed their feelings as we first saw in the tribal dance where John actually wanted the honor to be whipped. I wonder though if he still loves Lenina because I think that strong feelings don’t just go away and maybe he will become a apart of the citizens.
In response to LWM: Huh. I never thought of it that way. That is really true, come to think of it though: literature is definitely like an escape for John. Shakespeare, in fact, in itself today is a great piece of of literature with intense plots and character development. John may have then also read it to entertain himself (like LWM said). And it shows that yes, all humans do need some kind of entertainment. We need it now and the conditioned people and the savages needed it in their world. And I think LWM made a good point in saying people can't have the need for some sort of "soma" bred out of them. :)
Jake B. in response to Prompt #2
Lenina is definitely an interesting character in Brave New World. Originally, Lenina seems depressed and her friend believes its because she isn’t promiscuous enough as she only had one man in her life for the past four months (Henry). Lenina’s friend finally convinces Lenina to date Bernard. At that point, Lenina was interested in life outside of the modern world, so she goes to The Reservation with Bernard. Bernard brings back John and her mother Linda to the modern world in order to get dirt on the director. Lenina is so disgusted by life outside in The Reservation that she takes enough soma to make her pass out for 18 hours. In Chapter 13, Lenina finally gathers the courage (thanks to half a soma) to confront John about a possible relationship. Once John admits his love for her, Lenina immediately tries to have sex with John. John is bewildered by Lenina’s behavior, because he was grown up in The Reservation. John is so disgusted by Lenina that he calls her a “whore” and beats her. What I find interesting is how Lenina used to be so uninterested in men as she had been dating one man for four months (an awkward concept) and once she meets John she is instantly “in love”. Lenina’s “bi-polar” behavior could be a reason why she never seems happy. Granted, Lenina’s behavior was acceptable to the new world, but still she switches her personality completely in just a few chapters. After the confrontation with John, we can only assume that Lenina will take multiple grammes of soma. I think why Lenina is so unhappy is because she relies on soma and it makes her lonely. I think Huxley is trying to send a clear message that in the future, everyone will strive for instant gratification (soma, sex, etc.). Unfortunately, for the Brave New World people don’t realize that there is more to life than instant gratification and that in actuality the best gratification is delayed gratification.
Jake B in response to LWM
I liked how you described soma as a drug that lets people's "imaginations take control of their minds." I always assumed soma was some sort of narcotic since people took it when they had pain, and overdoses (such as Lenina's "holiday") forced immediate, pro-longed sleep. Another idea I found interesting was how Linda's doctor was going to allow Linda to take 20 grammes of soma a day until she dies of respiratory failure. The doctor's explanation is simply she has no important role in society and if she chooses to do so than he doesn't have a problem. A doctor in today's society would lose their lisence for those actions. John tries to get Linda to stop taking the soma, but then the book leaves the subject. I find it horrifying how man will do anything to seek immediate gratification,, regardless of the consequences (death from respiratory failure).
Like GLS said above, I believe that John didn’t sleep with Lenina because he had realized what she really was, which was something that he didn’t support morally or believe in. John wanted to get married, settle down, and have a family, while Lenina wanted to only have sex. This frustrated John because it went against everything he had learned back at the reservation, not to mention he was made fun of his mother for being such a person (meaning a whore). There is also a quote from Shakespeare that John uses on pg. 191 which supports his reasoning, “If thou dost break her virgin knot before all sanctimonious ceremonies may with full and holy right…” This quote is from William Shakespeare’s The Tempest, the rest of the line goes like this “…be minister’d, no sweet aspersion shall the heavens let fall to make this new contract grow; but barren hate, sour-ey’d disdain, and discord, shall bestrew the union of your bed with weeds so loathly, that you shall hate it both: therefore, take heed, as Hymen’s lamps shall light you.” I believe John uses this quote in order to show his belief on premarital sex, and how it can destroy who you are as a person. Not to mention this quote also reflects John’s religious views as well because it talks about how if you have sex with a girl before you are married then your marriage will not be blessed by God, who is someone/thing that John really related to and something that John could always turn to when he was alone. At the end of Chapter 13, John went in to an outrage against Lenina, and I don’t condone him for doing so. I believe that John did this because it reminded him of his mother when she was offering herself to many men on the reservation, and then her deciding to sleep with Pope many times, even though they weren’t married or anything close to that. When his mother acted in such a way it made John very upset because it was something no one else on the reservation did, so he was made fun of because of his mother. Not to mention, it caused his mother to drink herself in to a stupor. John was furious at Lenina for trying to offer herself to him because he loved her so much that he didn’t want her to end up like his mother and he wanted her to feel the same way about things (like marriage) as he did.
By the way that was from KLP
KLP in response to GLS--
I agree with you that John didn't sleep with Lenina because he realized she was, somewhat, just the same as his mother was. Not to mention that her love compared to his love are two very different types of love. Lenina just wanted a "quick fix," while John wanted to be committed. But do you think if John learned more about what happened at the Centre that he would understand Lenina's thought process more? Or would he just have more of distaste for they way they live in the brave new world? But you are right, hitting Lenina probably wasn't the best way to show that he was angry, but is was most likely the only way he knew how to show his emotions at the point in time. Also, do you think his unstable mental state is due to his mother, or is it him trying to adjust to the new "way" of life?
Honestly, I think that for John, stories provide him with more relatable society than the World States do. I think that the stories not only act as a scape goat but also as a way for him to release tension and frustration with the outside world. I think that the literature brings him comfort and relief. It’s an escape from the horrors of his past and now from the unfamiliarity’s of his current surroundings. The literature gives John a new view to observe the world through. It’s just like how when Lenina doesn’t want to deal with the pressures of society or the painful situations of reality, she immediately takes soma; literature provides John with that same kind of outlet. I think that a story, unlike anything else, can provide a human being with instant compassion. It allows people to fully understand various characters and what their lives are like. Stories let people grow and progress through characters and plot lines. They can teach people life lessons or simple facts. I think that stories can even shape personal opinion and allow people’s inhibitions to be set free. While the intent of a story may be specific, the meaning that people take away from them can be different for each individual. I think that it’s interesting in this particular case that John uses Shakespeare as a representation in which to view the World State, however Shakespeare’s world and the World State’s have completely opposite values. The World States teaches people not to feel with their expectations of promiscuity and the constant intake of soma. Shakespeare’s plays consist of tragedies, comedies, and histories. This is obviously in complete contrast with the World States value system, which has basically wiped out history and doesn’t believe in having human feelings. -SM
SM in response to LWM:
I love how you asked yourself the question: Does conditioning really do that much for people subconsciously? I think that’s an interesting thought and I must agree with what you said. Although conditioning has created daily habits in people’s lives, I don’t think that it causes people to forget about their basic human needs. It’s just like how you pointed out that Lenina was feeling upset, it shows that she is actually feeling something without taking soma or having multiple sex partners. I also think that the interesting thing about Lenina is her relationship with John. He makes her yearn and desire him, without even trying. These emotions and even this situation are completely normal for human beings to have and I think that this is also a good example of how maybe these futuristic people aren’t so different from us after all. Do you think that maybe all humans also crave love? Not just random sex partners, but maybe all humans do have an inherent need of love that is reciprocated. I can’t wait to read more and see if anymore human traits that we carry will be seen in this culture!
Prompt 3:
It seems that the relationship between John and Lenina imitates John's view of the World State. When still on the reservation, John struggles to withhold from touching Lenina as she lay sleeping. This is similar to his curiosity with the world state and desire to see it. He craves the instant gratification that he has learned so much about. However, when John does arrive at the world state his attitude turns from excitement to disgust. Although he did know how the world state operated, actually seeing it made him realize that that it goes against many of the values that he had been raised on such as his disgust with seeing so many clones working the factories and by being treated as the “savage”. This is shown through his relationship with Lenina when she takes him to a feely. John is curious about Lenina and still has a physical attraction to her; however, he is confused as his current values collide with the world state since he is shameful of his desire for her and locks himself in his room to avoid casual sex. The final straw for John is when he is talking to Helmholtz. When he finally feels that he can relate to something in this “brave new world” by having an intelligent conversation about Shakespeare. However it is when Helmholtz breaks out laughing at the idea of relationships between parents and people getting married in Romeo and Juliet that John is crushed and he fully realizes the horrors of such a heartless society. This is again shown in with Lenina when she comes to visit him with intentions to seduce him. John makes a finally attempt to find security within Lenina with talking of growing old together and developing a relationship not reliant upon sex, but when Lenina appears to continue his sexual advances with no intentions of a relationship John completely loses it and rejects the world state by slapping Lenina. John is not able to handle being thrusted into a society that appears to be the exact opposite of his own and it is only natural that he would lash out against it. It would be concerning if John did not lash out, and while his actions may be viewed as extreme so is the situation that he was placed in.
Resoponse to SMResponse to SM
I like how they stated that Johns obsession with Shakespeare is due to him trying to find a way to release tension. It seems like every time John is trying to show emotion he does so through quotes from Shakespeare. One such example is to show disgust at having so many of the same person cloned working in a factor he says something along the line of what a brave new world to have such people in it. It seems like both soma and books are attempts to escape from people’s current situation only that books take John to a different place and give a more intellectual view on the world and soma does the opposite by taking them no place at all and dulling them to nothing more than empty shells. I like how they also pointed out the contrast between the themes of Shakespeare’s plays and the world state. This became extremely evident in the way that John became at first confused about how the world state could function the way it did and later rejected it completely.
I believe that Lenina, to John, was an object of reverence, like a god, not of lust. That, it seems was why he so secretly loved her, because he believed himself not worthy to be in the favor of a goddess like Lenina. His love was of longing, so much further intensified by some secret belief that he would never be allowed to be close to her. His literature, that is so ingrained into his mind, controls his emotions almost. The literature is so reverent and ornate, never fully reaching the point of bodily love and lust, speaking of honor highly, and lust so lowly and compared to evil. When she showed, what John would view as, the mannerisms of the lustful temptress so heavily condemned by the literature ingrained in him, it likely shattered his reverent view of her as an unattainable goddess. Such a titanic and staggering realization would be so devastating that likely no less of a reaction would exist for such a situation like John’s. To find out that a goddess is a hell-bound whore would destroy most anyone, especially so passionate a believer as John. Though I don’t condone his reaction I can easily understand how someone so impassioned by such morally bound literature to feel so devastated and angered.
In response to GLS’s post
I very much agree that John was more in love with the idea of her than she herself. John seemed to miss or overlook, until she advanced on him, the manners imprinted by her society and condemned by John’s. And agreeably again the same or similar can be said of Lenina’s infatuation of John. He was so different and unreachable that she was blind to the signs that an advance like hers could be met with such strong emotion. I mean, when you remember back to the stories of his mother’s punishments for her conduct, you can see, when you actually examine how he describes the events, that he believes that Linda’s actions were condemnable too. I hadn’t thought about the added effects of the stress caused by John’s zoo animal predicament. Indeed such emotions would amplify his reaction, to a great degree higher than the realization alone would incite.
HA - Prompt One
Personally I think that for John, his literature was his soma. John had a "mother," Linda who was always wasted because she couldn't get over the fact that she was trapped in the Savage Reservation with her own child! So as a means of escape from his unhappy home-life, John develops a love of reading; his stories take him away from his bad life situation and they take him to a place that is happy and free and if you don't like something in the story, you just close the book or skip the page. Lenina and the citizens in the Brave New World do the same thing with their Soma, they use it to escape from the hard times in life. When they are feeling low or just wanting to be gone from life for awhile, they take soma. John didn't have Soma on the reservation, so he used literature to satisfy his needs instead.
The other reason that I think John reads is that in his stories there are characters that he can rely on to be good and heroic..but in real life, he has no one to inspire him or to be a role model for him.
In response to prompt #1:
John is enthralled with literature. It is his haven and what he enjoys in life. Like the conditioned people have soma, John, the savage, has books and stories. John can’t live without literature; he is so attached to it just as the “civilized” people are attached to the soma. Books are able to take the mind anywhere and I think for John, they take him to a place he feels is home. John doesn’t really belong anywhere as we learned in earlier chapters; he’s not a conditioned person and he was never accepted into society on the reservation. The stories he reads give John a place to go and he feels as if he belongs in those stories. He can relate to the messages relayed by Shakespeare and other authors so he loves to read. He can also relate to the characters; he feels more like the people in the books than he does like people in his society. Books and stories are John’s drugs and make him happy. He is able to escape the real world and go where he feels he belongs. Books do that in today’s society, so according to Huxley, they can still do that in the future. I think John reading books makes him a more relatable character to the reader of Brave New World. He’s independent and not like any conditioned or savage person in the book. I think he’s more like a person we can relate to than anyone else in the book like Bernard or Lenina.
Prompt2
Everyone is supposed to be happy in World State because no one really wants anything. Everyone is equal and same. Therefore, they learned to be selfless and expecting anything from others since anyone can have relationship with anyone they want to. Lenina used to be one of those, who didn’t care who she sleeps with. However, she became so sincere toward John (the Savage) and she only wants him instead of any men. When she didn’t care who she sleeps with or didn’t care about affection or love, she did not have any worries. But when she realized that she really do like John, she only wanted to be with John and not any other. She became unhappy and depressed because she only wants John but she doesn’t know what to do because this never happened to her before or no one else. She doesn’t know what to do or how to act in front of John and she doesn’t get his action either, which frustrates Lenina because she doesn’t know if John feels that same way. I think Huxley is trying to say that people are unhappy because of what they want. When one’s wish or want is not fulfilled, one gets frustrated which cause stress and unhappiness. In today’s society, with materialism, people wants more and more. And because those wants can never be fulfilled, people are unhappy as a result.
Prompt 3:
When John first met Lenina he was very interested in her. He found her attractive and had to resist the urge to touch her when she was sleeping. She was different than the "savages" that he was used to, and i think that's what drew him to her. When they returned to the civilized world Lenina started to become interested in John as well. In the civilized world sleeping with a man is nothing special, it's what is normally done after a date. But in with the "savages" that's not how it's done. You have one life long partner. So when Lenina made advances on John, it first frightened him. Having sex is a big deal where he grew up. It wasn't anything he wanted to just jump into. John truly loved Lenina, and thought he was doing the right thing by holding back.
When Lenina made the second advancement John just became insulted. He had declared his love for her, in a way that seemed normal for him. But when Lenina didn't appreciate this and just tried to have sex with him, his view of her changed. That, along with how her world was run with the breeding of children, made him realize how different they were. He felt because of how their societies that they were brought up in were run they would never feel the same about each other.
John loved Lenina and wanted to grow old with her but he realized he was just going to be a short term pleasure for her. He didn't know how to deal with that other than slapping her and calling her a whore.
In my opinion he did the only thing he knew to deal with this. He saw his mother treated like this in the savage community so to him that's how it should have been dealt with.
-CRK
Response to HA
I think you had a very good point that his books are the only things that John has to relate to. As hard as he tried he could never fit into the "savage society." He was an outcast. But his books could never reject him. He could be accepted into this fantasy world. And I wouldn't even say it was this perfect world, where everything is happy, because shakespeare's book have a lot of drama where not everything works out as planned. I think John just needed a place to fit in. He didn't want to find a perfect world where everything played out as planned. That isn't what he needed, for him that would seem too fake. He needed stories with believable plots that let him live out scenes that were full of drama. He needed books to give him scenes in his life that would fulfill all the aspects of a normal life, which he lacked.
-CRK
In Response to Prompt 1:
When John is shunned by society, he turns to literature, to Shakespeare. In a sense, when he is immersed in the pages of literature, he is no longer alone; he has companions. The books, like Soma, carry John into his mind. But the books do more than soma, for they transport John into a world that has conflict and drama and characters and emotion. The books, then, are not just a means of release and escape for John. They provide human interaction, something he sorely lacks both on the Reservation and in the World State. So while the World State citizens use soma to provide solitude, John uses literature to escape solitude. The literature takes the place of the barely-there Linda and the abusive members of his society. John reads for entertainment, but there is a baser need, a more urgent need. Literature gives John the human touch that he so lacks.
It is interesting that John reads Shakespeare, of all the literature he could find. The eloquence and sophistication of Shakespeare’s words, juxtaposed with the simplistic World State phrases, further separates John from the rest of society. The Shakespeare allows John to enter the minds of other humans, to realize that other people can feel guilt and resentment but also feel pleasure and happiness. But the Shakespeare also paints a lens through which John views society, especially Lenina. Shakespeare’s plays depict the intricacies of love and guilt, emotions that the World State has all but eradicated. The Shakespeare influence makes it very difficult for John to interact with Lenina; he sees her as his Juliet, but her conditioning turns her into a ‘strumpet’. It is ironic that the language of Shakespeare that John so loves and needs eventually drives him away from his first true human companion.
John’s attempt in escaping the tension from the world state with literature can be related to the way that the world state citizens take soma for the same reason. The soma drug acts as a way for the world state citizens to indulge themselves with the ultimate instant gratification whenever they feel unhappiness. In the same way John turns to literature whenever he needs to escape the realities of the world state. It seems that Shakespeare provides the language through which John understands the realities of the world. The literature enabled John to express his own complex emotions and reactions by correlating them with the values that Shakespeare provided him. The literature also provided John a framework in which he could pass judgment on the world state values and assimilate his own based on the teachings of Shakespeare. Shakespeare plays are known for their examples of human relations involving passionate, intense, and tragic themes which go against many of the values that the world state attempts to eliminate. Due to this the Shakespeare literature allowed John to hold on to his own values and judgments separate from the world state.
MAM
Response to SS
I too found it quite interesting that out of all the literature Huxley choose Shakespeare for John to read. However it kind of makes sense that John would read Shakespeare due to the fact that many of the themes and values represented in Shakespeare plays go directly against what the world state is attempting to eliminate. In this way I think Huxley is showing how separable and latched on John is with his own values by reading something that provides him with this haven to compare his own values with Shakespeare. I also liked your response about how “Shakespeare allows John to enter the minds of other humans, to realize that other people can feel guilt and resentment but also feel pleasure and happiness”. I find this interesting as well because it is so hard for John to enter the mindset of the Word State citizens since their conditioning and way of thinking is so different from John’s. It would make sense that John would read Shakespeare in order to enter a “true” human’s mind that that involves mixed emotions instead of the huge elations that the world state attempts to put on their citizens.
MAM
In Response to LWM’s response to GLS:
I agree when you say, “John had set Lenina up on a pedestal” because she was the Juliet to his Romeo; Lenina, inevitably, falls short of his expectations. The songs Lenina sings seem childish compared to the eloquent Juliet John previously quotes. And Lenina’s flippant declarations of feeling are at odds with John’s understanding of emotion.
I think John lashed out at Lenina because that was how people dealt with his mother, Linda. Life on the Reservation taught John that misbehaving women are beaten. That raises an interesting point, then. Is Lenina really accountable for her actions, or can her conditioning take the blame for her licentious behavior? In John’s case, it seems as if his environment taught him to display his feelings violently. Does that mean Lenina acts this way because her environment, not her conditioning, trains her to? If this is true, then the World State society may never allow emotion to be expressed, for its citizens will keep each other from stepping out of line.
When John refuses to sleep with Lenina, I was very proud of what he did. It takes true dicipline to resist temptation like that and I think the actions he took, although violent, were very necessary in order to resist that temptation. He was rejected from his own society he was taught right from wrong. He was also reciting Romeo and Juliet which is a story about true love. There was no shade of gray in this situation. Also he learned what love is and this society has no perception of what love is. "Everybody belongs to Everybody" is their view on social life and to show 'love' they would go and have sex with eachother whereas John was taught that this kind of love is not love at all but lust. One of my favorite verses in the bible is Matthew 5 27-28 which is part of Jesus's sermon on the mount. Jesus says "You have herd that it was said, 'You must not be guilty of adultry.' But I tell you that if anyone looks at a woman and lusts after her, he as already committed adultury with her in his mind." When Lanina was on her soma holiday and John saw her sleeping he had thoughts of lust after her, but he knew it was wrong and by not giving in to temptation in his mind, he was able to resist the true temptation later.
Response to SS:
You mentioned that John uses Shakespeare to view society with an understanding of human emotion and what it means to be truly human. Also that this was totally "eradicated" by the world state was represented in one of the various conversations between John and Helmholtz where they were John was talking about the story of Romeo and Juliet where Juilet was asking her mother to delay the marriage which was a scene where Juliet had a feeling desperation and sadness which Helmholtz could not understand. Helmholtz ended up finding it really funny because he doesn't understand what the relationship between ones parents because he has never had any. He doesn't understand why she just won't have the one she loves rather than the ones his parents love because he really doesn't understand the relationship between ones parents and oneself is a loving (which they have no real conecpt of) and diciplined relationship.
KMR---prompt 3
I believe that the reason the savage (John) didn’t sleep with Lenina is because he had envisioned her as a life long partner and where he grew up sex was something that you wait for and is a very special thing. I believe that the idea of Lenina was what John fell in love with, not Lenina herself. John isn’t use to the boldness that Lenina shows about sex because he has never experienced it. He is overwhelmed with his mom being sick and the bold actions by Lenina that when she finally pushes the issue too far John snaps and slaps her. I think that this incident ruined how “perfect” he saw Lenina as and gave him a little bit more insight into how people are “raised” at the centre. I don’t think that what he did was right but at the time I think that’s all he knew what to do. Everything is so new to John and its going to take some time to get use to it.
KMR in repsonse to GLS
I agree with you that John thought that Lenina was "perfect". It's sad that he loves her so much and she loves him but since they were raised in very different ways it would be hard for them to ever have a "normal" relationship, or even a stable one. I think that if Lenina wouldn't be so pushy towards John then maybe things would work out but since Lenina was raised being taught that sex was ok for everyone and with many different people, John doesn't really know how to repsond.
Lenina was unhappy because everything was not going 'according to plan'. It seems that all of her life Lenina had been a girl who was popular with other boys. She was talked about by them and she didn't seem to have any trouble having whichever one she wanted. The reason she is unhappy is because she can't figure out john and his savage ways. She doesn't know anything about love or marrage, she just knows how to go on dates. When John doesn't respond to her longing, she probably feels as if she had something wrong with her or she wasn't good enough for him. These kind of negative thoughts are uncommon in 'the brave new world' so she is very confused and distressed over it. As for john, I do condone his actions to an extent... If I were him I probably wouldn't have beat Lenina so badly. She's not at wrong because she doesn't know any better. John thinks she is a 'strumpet' because he hasn't really met any other girls in the society so he can't know that they are all the same morally. I think if John weren't so alone when he was in civilized places he would learn alot more about the culture that Lenina and Bernard grew up in. This would make things alot easier when he got into situations like he did with Lenina. I don't see why John takes things so negatively. If I were him I would learn about the new world and probably start thinking very philosophically
In response to SS:
I really love reading your comments, they are so deep! I definitely agree with the whole literature aspect. Reading literature is his soma, it's what makes him feel good and comfortable. Those worlds that Shakespeare creates are places for John to escape reality and get to a place where he feels he fits in. I also liked how you said reading Shakespeare allowed John to enter other people's minds. He really is able to see that other people are capable of having emotions. Those stories are unlike the World State in so many ways but the fact that he can relate Shakespeare's characters to people like Lenina is very interesting. This is kind of his way to connect with the people because he doesn't in any other way. Neither the savage society nor the world state society accepts him so it's interesting that he's able to relate to the people in some way.
LJW responding to prompt 3:
Like several people above I agree that John feel madly in love with Lenina but I don't think that he slept with her because of his morals. He allowed his feelings to take over in the beginning by liking her for being different, but once he finally realized what she was he realized nothing like marriage could happen. The fact that Lenina only wanting sex frustrated John makes me think that not all guys think about just getting with a pretty girl like most people think now days. When John uses the quote from Shakespeare about Lenina and how she should act different, shows a relationship that John has come from a new world, in that he has been taught history where as in the new world they are forbidden to learn history. The quote also showed that John has some type of religious back ground, which the people in the new world don’t have, but having this religious background it allows John to explain himself and have morals.
However when John went on his rampage towards Lenina I was very surprised at first because of his feelings he showed towards her in the beginning. Although I don’t agree with him hitting her, I do understand why he acted the way he did. John acted out in anger like any child would when reminded of a terrible past. John looks at Lenina, as if she was the same as his mother. Lenina was like his mother in the fact that she offered herself up so quickly to someone she didn’t even know that will like his mother did on the reservation; these both being people that he loved.
LJW in response to TAS
I never really thought of reading the chapters from her point of view. You make great points, when you are looking at her life and what has probably made her the way that she is now. I also like the fact that you understand John's feelings but you don't exactly agree with them after looking at Lenina's life the way that you did. I would have thought you would have been ok with the way John acted since neither one of the characters really knew what they other was fully thinking. But it does make a great point to the real world when looking at younger children that are "in love" because there always seems to be a mis1eading factor between two people.
KAH in response to the 3rd question
I don't think that the Savage wanted to sleep with Lenina because he has a picture of what love and marriage is like based on the Shakespeare he has read and his life at Malpais. He wants to save himself for his possible marriage to Lenina and he doesn't believe in the ideals instilled in the people of the brave new world. He thinks that sleeping around with many people is wrong. John fell in love with Lenina but doesn't want to ruin his love for her by sleeping with her.
I agree with his actions at the end of the chapter because he was obviously sticking to his guns and not giving into something he doesn't believe in. John was not interested in getting with Lenina and he wasn't going to let her persuade him into doing something he didn't want to do. I don't think that John should have smacked Lenina on the back but he was trying to get his point across to her, which I think he was successful in doing.
KAH in response to KLP
I agree with what you said about how John finally realized who Lenina was. John fell in love with Lenina at Malpais because she was different than other people and more like who he actually was. Once John realized that all Lenina wanted was sex, John burst into the outrage that was probably not the best way to handle the situation. I also like the connection you make between the Savages outrage against Lenina and what he had witnessed at Malpais with his mother and her many man. John even tried to hurt Pope once while sleeping with his mother. I hadn't thought of that connection until now.
Y.E's response to MM_60052
i thought it is really creative to connect the relationship between John and Lenina to John's biew of the World State since i never thought about it that way before. as i was reading the response, i could see the connections that were being linked together. And i agreed with the fact that John was disgusted and surprised at the same time to see the differences between the world he was raised in and the World State. He knew about the World State because his mother told him all about it but he never imagined it being the way the World State operates. It is indeed very interesting to see how he acts infront of Lenina. I was confused in the beginning since he seemd like he was interested in her but he will soon get away from her and have a distance from Lenina all of a sudden. I guess it was because John was not used to feeling the way he felt infront of Lenina.However, what was Huxley trying to say through John's reaction toward Lenina? the fact that he refused to have sex with her which basically go against what "normal" person does in World State?
I think that the savage won’t sleep with Lenina because he still has the cultural values from the savage community. In the savage community he was shunned because his mother was a whore and slept with most of the men in the village. When the women came after her I think that it scared John and made him afraid of any of the circumstances. Also I think because of his reading and his study of Shakespeare he actually has an understanding of sex and how its suppost to be shared. He doesn’t want to have the casual soma sex that the rest of society is having he wants to have the passionate sex that Romeo and Juliet had. I think that John actions where a little strange. He went crazy and scared the crap out of Lenina. I think that he could have just run away instead of attacking her like he did. I think that he was scared and he really didn’t know what to do so he panicked and the only thing that he was thinking was that he had to get away from her even though he had feeling with her. I do think that he should have just gone away to another apartment and just gotten away from Lenina rather then throwing her away and reciting Shakespeare out the wazoo.
Jon Clark
Prompt 3:
I think that John, the "savage", wouldn't sleep with Lenina because, when he lived on the reservation, sexual promiscuity was a lot less acceptable. His own mother was beat because she slept with whoever she pleased at the reservation. John has not yet adapted to the way of life in the World State. The way he handled Lenina, though, was completely strange and inappropriate. When Lenina begins pressing herself against him and removing her cloths, John becomes furious and terrified, calls her a whore, and slaps her! In response, she locks herself in the bathroom while John reenacts King Lear's disgusted tirade against woman.
JLS in response to GLS
I don't agree that John wouldn't sleep with Lenina because he "finally realized what she was." I think that he was just furious and terrified at the thought of sleeping with a woman he knew little about after coming from a society where sexual promiscuity was not very pronounced.
In response to prompt 3:
I think a major component of the Savage’s (aka John’s) reaction to Lenina was largely due to the distinct differences between the two cultures. For John, sleeping with Lenina would mean going against everything he was taught his entire life. With that kind of conditioning, it makes it difficult to go against it, especially with something as extreme as that. After what occurred with his mother, he is obviously scarred by that, so with that added to the conditioning he received, added to being in a completely new society, added to the stress of his mother being sick, added to all of the other challenges he was facing, I didn’t find John’s reaction of hitting Lenina and calling her a “whore” to overly surprising. It’s unfortunate that things had to occur in this fashion, however, each acted according to the norms of their society, so it only seems natural that such a disastrous outcome should occur. As a whole, I think this event really helped exploit the aspects of each culture and show how much of extreme opposites they really were. I felt it did a great deal in showing some of the flaws of both cultures, and really exemplified where places within each culture that could possibly create discord among the people of each group.
In response to Jon Clark:
First off, I agree with you’re idea of the culture shock, and I like you’re thought of the incorporation of his readings of Shakespeare influencing his values. However, I don’t think he fully “went crazy.” I think it was more a matter of him being placed in a situation that was extraordinarily uncomfortable to him, and him ultimately reacting according to the violence, and other experience he had growing up. So when it comes down to it, I think its less an issue of looking at how John should have reacted, but more looking at why he reacted in such a manner. In addition, I think you were on to something with his readings of Shakespeare influencing him, because I think it might explain why he recited the Shakespeare quote, which I think was his way of explaining and expressing his thoughts about what had occurred, and what he thought should have occurred.
The savage has always known a lonely life. In Malpais, he was an outsider, and found condolence in reading—the one advantage he had over the other people. Even surrounded by his “own people” by blood, the savage is out of place. Again, the words of Shakespeare (incomprehensible to the world state civilians) comfort him. It becomes evident why John relies on literature so much: it is his only outlet in which he can live the relationships and emotions he dreams of in real life. When you read a book, you dictate the pictures you see in your mind; you get to internalize every aspect of the story. It seemed as though John had little control over his life, but in reading, the reader’s ideals are the only ones. In Malpais, the tempo of life was much slower—so slow to the point that John didn’t seem to have an eventful life whatsoever. In contrast, London presents a much swifter rate of life, where soon John finds himself longing for relaxation and solitude. In Literature, the pace at which the path unfolds is completely up to you—no other person can have any influence. In terms of these factors, John’s books are much like the civilian’s soma. Looking at the aftermath is when the disparities begin to surface. Just like everything in the World State, soma is all about instant gratification. As soon as it is over, the user is left unchanged. Literature leaves its influence on its “user” for the rest of their life; they will forever hold the lessons and inspiration brought by that piece of writing which leads to long-term fulfillment. We can see this at the end of Chapter 13. Lenina and John are pinned face-to-face spitting the knowledge of their choice at each other. Lenina feels nothing but confusion as she recites “a grame is better than a damn,” clearly blind to any deeper meaning in her propaganda. John, however, uses the raw emotion and complete matching context of Shakespeare, trying in desperation to grasp something human in Lenina.
-K.W.Y.
KWY response to JB:
I agreed with what you said about Huxley’s foreshadowing of a future society forever unsatisfied with instant gratification, but I still don’t know if I can pinpoint they why of it. Huxley created a society in which instant gratification was so accessible that as soon as a person had obtained their wish, they could already be reaching for the next object of desire. At such a fast gratification rate, doesn’t it seem that constant gratification could be possible? And If so, why the need for delayed gratification? Also, what of the one character who seems to understand delayed gratification? He becomes so swept up in his self-discipline that he ends with a miserable life. Is that another message from Huxley?
John had a much different set of values than Lenina. Her wants including just having sex, but John didn't think highly of one night stands, etc. John wanted to live the normal life and get married and start a family. John's views are set in stone, he feels that premarital sex will ruin a person and make marriage later on impure. John has a strong belief in God which is another reason why he feels so strongly against premarital sex. In his eyes, if premarital sex occurs, then the marriage when it does happen, will not be blessed by God. John becomes furious with Lenina at one point because of her whorish ways. This reminds him of his own mother in some ways which could of probably made him even madder. John was confused because he actually loved Lenina, but she saw anything between them as only potential for sex, not a real relationship or future marriage.
Brad brought up a good point that i didn't think about at first. I wasnt so sure what exactly brought John to be so attracted to Lenina, in fact loving her. He viewed her on a petestule, and thought of her in such a high view. He thought that if he were worthy of such a being like her, than it would be appropriate. But the fact that Lenina thinks casual sex with anyone, including him is okay was a turn off to him. He didn't want success (with a relationship with her) to be given to him, he wanted it to come to him because of real love. John is the man because he has high standards and doesn't want to just fuck whores. Sorry for my french.
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