Just finished reading the book....wow. I can't help but feel that I've brushed some of the deep ideas, that I've been drawn out of my mundane daily life and shown a glimpse of the things we truly long for. I would venture to guess that Huxley wanted us to feel that way, he wanted us to wrestle with ourselves and hold to all things good that we can find.
The perspective has shifted in these chapters. We started the novel as birds on Bernard's shoulder, gradually shifted to include Lenina and then Linda's perspective. But in the last chapters we follow John the Savage exclusively. We see his sorrow and horror (the horror! the horror!) as he confronts the reality of death. We see his grief turn to anger and eventually rage. He tries to take a stand and convince a group of citizens to rebel against civilization in the name of liberty ("I'll make you be free whether you want to or not" (213). His conversation with Mustafa Mond is fascinating--I was shocked to see that the World Controller had a library of books and possessed a weath of knowledge about truth. His dislosure that islands exist full of "every one, in a word, who's any one" (227) is one of my favorite lines in the book becuase of the way it plays on the words "every one" and "any one"--separating them in order to place emphasis on the "one". It is an island of individuals!
It is curious to me, then, that the Savage chooses to retreat, not to these islands, but to a lighthouse relatively close to civilization. There is deep symbolism embedding in the choice of a lighthouse, which I'm sure you caught right away. I have so many questions to ask after reading, and more than anything would love to have you all in a circle so we could talk about it in person--but this venue will have to suffice.
Please choose from the following questions to respond to:
1. Chapters 16 and 17 reveal that art, science and religion have all been sacrificed for the sake of stability. Which do you think is the greater price to pay and why?
2. Mond explains that one the Brave New World is "only possible when there's no self-denial" (237). Do you feel that modern America is on this trajectery? Are we embracing the idea that we should deny ourselves nothing, and what are the consequences of living without self-denial?
3. At the end of the novel, the Savage whips himself relentlessly. A few chapters earlier he says, "Nothing costs enough here" and he even "claims the right to be unhappy." (239-240) Analyze your reactions to these ideas.
4. I really want to ask something about the connection between his need to punish himself and Lenina with almost religious fervor and the orgy-porgy that the crowd falls into simultaneously...but I can't decide how to ask it...
5. The novel ends with John's tragic suicide, and as his body slowly rotates on the rope, his feet oscillate from one end of the compass to the other....as if he is searching for something that he is unable to find. What do you think he is searching for and why is that thing the most important message in the novel?
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46 comments:
Prompt #1:
Although I'm not exactly a fan of any one religion, I do believe that the exclusion of such from society is possibly the most detrimental. Throughout history, the one thing that has spurred on progress has been religion and its fervor. Behind art is the need to please a deity of some kind, to make a way to worship the god by creating an idol of it proclaiming one's steadfast love (of course, there was also a point when such art was forbidden). The point is, however, that religion led to art, and art led to science. In order to improve the beauty, the art, of life, science was utilized.
The influx of religious variation led to freedom in other areas, including art and science. Religion is the fundamental foundation to any single person's life; even in the present, there are many people whose lives are guided by their faiths. Although I personally can live without religion, I know that there are countless people who cannot. Religion is a guiding light that I've learned to walk in the dark without, and yet it is not a copmletely essential thing to everyone in society. But religion was the founder of most other facets to life and society, so in the future, it is religion which will most be missed.
On the other hand, religion is moving relatively slowly even in the present. The factions have been created, the dissentors have found their own niches, and the separate churches have been established. Would religion really be missed all that much in the future? It has already done its job; it has created new pathways of mental progression. What further foundation is needed? And besides, with art and science banned anyway (which...what??? Cause they have inventions and such, and they control births...which is definitely science), there is no more point to religion. The World Controllers give the people someone to follow; death is no longer a scary thing to face with the help of a god. Religion has been usurped by the future.
Prompt # 2-
I think that unfortunately America is on this trajectory without even being aware of it. In America we pride ourselves on being up to date on the newest technologies, even if that means sacrificing our quality of life in the long run. I think that one of America’s major values is competition, which is only encouraged by capitalism. We compete with each other to get to the top whether it is at work, in school, or even in lifestyle. With the growing number of new gadgets like the iphone or car GPS systems, America has become increasingly unaware of self restraint. This could even be an explanation as to why our economy is facing a recession. American’s have been so fixated on having the best house or the best car that they have spent money that they do not actually have. Instead of living within their income level, Americans have simply charged items frivolously to a credit card. This lack of self-restraint may not seem to be a real issue but the country’s economic state should be a clear indication of its dangers. Another consequence of living without self denial is a lack of contentment. If people are constantly striving for the next best thing, they aren’t able to stop and actually enjoy life. I think that this is a key reason why the lack of self-restraint is one of the major forces driving the Brave New World. Without self-restraint, people will never feel content and instead of living life individually, they will be in constant comparison with the whole society. Individuality will be completely wiped out because without self-restraint everyone will have the same technologies instead of having their own values and beliefs they will merely follow a social norm. I think that it’s unfortunate that America is embracing this idea of denying ourselves nothing, however I do think that we are doing it sub-consciously. That’s what’s scary about this society, although it seems so extreme, America seems to be making all the appropriate steps that lead up to this Brave New World. -SM
SM in response to LWM-
Okay your response is incredible, it’s so thought provoking and well written! Anyways, I think that the connection you made between art, religion, and science is so true and fascinating. When I first read this question I immediately thought that religion would be the most missed. I am a Christian and I go to church every Sunday, religion and God plays a huge role in my life. However, I do see where you’re coming from when you say that the foundations of it have already been established. I realize that with art and science there are always new interpretations and progress to be made but aren’t their foundations already laid as well? I mean science is obviously still flourishing and new technology is constantly being produced but the basic principles of science are already there. It’s kind of the same situation with art, although new forms of art are constantly being made, the classifications of different types of art and the techniques have already been formed. Although religion may seem pointless, it touches the lives of those who want to give up, it gives people hope and a reason to keep going each day. For me, religion and my belief in God makes me strive to be my best self. I would have to disagree with you, a society without religion, I think, would be incredibly superficial and eventually fall apart.
KLP in Response to Prompt 5:
Overall, John stands for truth, happiness, and morals. In Brave New World, there are none of these things, so that may be what John is “searching for.” John searches for truth because in Brave New World there is no real truth, Mustapha Mond said it himself that people are better off with happiness than with truth, and in Brave New World the truth is covered up by the happy hallucinations of soma. John searches for happiness as well because he hasn’t been happy anywhere he has been. On the reservation he wasn’t happy because he was an outsider and wasn’t treated the same as the other children; in Brave New World he isn’t happy because the people there don’t understand how crazy they are acting, along with the fact that Lenina cannot seem to love him the way he wants to be loved. John also searched for morals. He wondered what brought the people in Brave New World to be amused by death, have sex casually without love, and to not even think on their own. Truth, happiness, and morality are the most important messages in the novel because it is how the Brave New World is set apart from the islands and the reservation. The people in the Brave New World live with out these and it makes them complete opposites of everyone that is not from Brave New World. Because they are complete opposites, when put with people from different places, it is like they are a completely different species of person. Kind of a weird idea, but it seems like almost a cognitive type of speciation. Where the two groups mind sets are so different that when they are brought back together, after being separated for a while, they cannot live together, like what happened between Lenina and John. But I’m wondering if this message of the need for truth, happiness, and morality maybe telling us that in our future we need to keep these things in mind, so we don’t end up like the people in the Brave New World?
B Schill in response to Prompt #1
They all are a steep price to pay for the sake of stability; however science is the greatest price to pay in my opinion for a few reasons. One reason is that science is more interesting to me than art or religion because, I feel so much more can be discovered from it that is yet unknown. Art and religion have been around for so long that they seem to be pretty set in stone, so to speak. Everyone has found their place, their own niche, as LWM put it. Not much new info has been learned about religion for the past few centuries. Science however is still a mysterious field that I doubt would be fully explored by year 2573, because some new question is always posed and there is no limit to what can be learned about the world we live in. Removing scientific pursuit from society essentially removes what makes us human, what makes us different from animals: the desire to understand, the desire to learn. I mean, the animals have done the same things, lived their lives the same way since they existed as living creatures. Humans however have always sought new understanding and knowledge of what we don’t understand; that is our sole distinctiveness that sets us apart, that makes us more than animals, human.
However appalling this is the fact can’t be denied that the price of art, religion, and science is paid only by those privy to their existence. The phrase “ignorance is bliss” is the factor that shifts the burden only to those cognizant of what is lost. You can’t miss what you don’t know about. So few feel the burden, and because of that the burden is of that much greater a magnitude to each who knows, that the weight is maddening, John was driven to suicide because of it, Helmholtz was “exiled” because of it, the World Controller, well, he seems outwardly unaffected.
Nevertheless, you lose so much of what you are by both not knowing of it, and knowing of it’s absence and doing nothing about.
B. Schill in response to LWM
I agree that religion was important to the development of art and science in the beginning, but it seems like religion was more like a catalyst than a fundamental foundation because religion’s existence is no longer necessary to the pursuit of art and science, much like gun powder is no longer needed after the bullet is fired. Religion is also a powerful catalyst of conflict and hatred amongst human beings. The Sunnis and Shiites you always here about have been violently fighting for hundreds of years over religious disputes. The Nazis persecuted the Jews for their religious differences. The Al-Qaida attacked America for several reasons, one being extreme religious beliefs. There is no end to the death caused by religion. In a society seeking peaceful stability I see very clearly why the World State would just omit such a controversial subject in their society. But there is the much greater population that possesses religious beliefs for peaceful reasons. But the way Mr. Mond explained his personal reasoning, in chapter 17, is so logically sound that, for stabilities sake, religion should have been the first thing to go.
KMR
I believe that America is in fact on its way to becoming a Brave New World. Today we can have just about anything farely easily, as long as you're willing to pay for it. You want a new phone, go buy on from the cell phone company. You want food fast, go to a fast food place. You want to be tan, go to a tanning bed. In America we believe in instant gratification. We will do whatever we have to to get what we want and this creates a problem. We are sacrificing our own thoughts and desires so that we can fit into a mold of what society thinks we should be. As society changes its thoughts of what's cool, what's exceptable, and what's a msut have we too change. Not because we want to, but because society tells us too. If we aren't careful one day we will all think, dress, and act the same. Not because we want to, but because society says that we need to.
In response to KMR:
One day? No, I think we're pretty much there now. How do we choose what to wear in the mornings? Sometimes we'll base it off the weather, but what are the guidelines within that? We don't wear something we know will be "unacceptable" in our groups; we already fall into the same sorting that Brave New World sorted its inhabitants into. We claim to be happy in whatever group we are put into--as the Alphas, Betas, and so on were brainwashed to think--if only so we don't pine away wishing we were part of another group. We stick with our social groups like the Alphas, etc. did with theirs. Religion has been suppressed in the present as well; church is separated from state, religion cannot be taught in school, all people with influence are supposed to keep their opinions quiet. How then can anyone claim that our society is not on its way to the situation posed in Brave New World?
We always claim that we'll never lose our freedom of thought, but we only say that because everyone else says it too.
In Response to Prompt 1:
The Citizens of the World State experience a content, satisfied, stable life. But in order to live this life, they must sacrifice so much. Art, religion, even science are all intentionally hidden in order to create a seamless community. Religion, science, and art all have a unique position in the development of civilization. Both religion and science seek to explain; humans can face the unknown with religion and science as shields. Art, on the other hand, is pure human expression. Society loses when it must sacrifice art, religion, or science, but humanity itself loses when art must be sacrificed.
Art is pure and immortal; it transcends time and can reveal anything and everything. For this very reason, as Mustafa Mond explains, the World State cannot allow art. Art represents emotion, passion, and true feelings, something the World State has emphatically suppressed. Art also allows individuality to flow, for art exhibits individual talent and individual thought.
The World State sacrificed art, among many other things, in order to create a stable society where everyone was happy with their position. But this happiness was not a true feeling. This happiness lacked the strength and passion of real emotion. This happiness could never inspire true art. What is truly tragic of the World State’s sacrifice, then, is the fact that they may never escape. Art may never be created again; the sacrifice was completely permanent.
In Brave New World, the sacrifice of art is most apparent when John the Savage’s quotes of Shakespeare fall upon the deaf ears of the World State citizens. The citizens fail to realize the eloquence, beauty and universality of Shakespeare. As Mond explicitly states, Shakespeare has been eliminated because it is not new and cannot promote the capitalist and consumerist values of society. What Mond fails to realize is that Shakespeare, like any good art, will always be new. Shakespeare will always be relevant; Shakespeare will always have meaning.
We are human because we can express emotion. Art is the means of expression. A society without art, therefore, is a society without feeling. When the World State sacrificed art, it sacrificed its humanity.
In Response to LWM:
I absolutely love your comments about religion and developing society. I definitely agree that religion helped guide the formation of many civilizations, and many people today base their morals on religion. That being said, I believe that some people do still need religion. And I believe that nothing can really take the place of the comfort a religion can bring.
In regards to your queries about science and technology, I think there is a difference. The World State utilized technology for ‘progress’. As Mond explained, even some technological advances were curtailed simply so they could have a stable, working society. Science, then, is very different from technology, for it is practiced not solely for the sake of progress. Science, like religion, seeks to understand and explain. Science was born out of pure curiosity.
You claim that “death is no longer a scary thing to face with the help of a god.” But the citizens of World State did fear aging and death; that’s why they went to such lengths to preserve youth in everyone. That’s why Linda could not return to the World State. I think that instead of eliminating the need for religion, the directors of the World State took the place of religion. These alpha males became gods to the rest of society. I think John was absolutely correct when he compared soma to Christianity, for the citizens of World State conditioned themselves to hide themselves within technology. Unfortunately, when technology took the place of religion, it ceased to be a personal, intimate, meaningful thing.
KLP in response to SS
I completely agree with you why Brave New World doesn’t allow art. Some art would also be able to explain history that the inhabitants don’t even know about because it was taken away. What I’m wondering is if this new information would cause a revolt against the government because the people living in the Brave New World would see how others acted when they didn’t like something; or on the flip side of that, could it possibly strengthen their liking for the dis-Utopian society that they are living in? Would they not like the art because it shows them things that go against all that they have learned? What I find interesting is how even though Brave New World doesn’t allow art, they still have some forms of it. These forms would be the community sings and the feelies. You say that art expresses emotion, and in Brave New World there is no art, so they have no emotion; so does that mean that the sings and feelies are giving people like Lenina and everyone in Brave New World fake emotions? And how is Bernard able to actually feel emotions, while everyone else can't? I don't remember him having anything to do with art; or could it just be his true intellect; or because they added too much alcohol in to his tube when he was being decantured?
Prompt-(selfdenial) -HKA
I do think that Americans are very focused on getting what they want and having it all. No American wants to be denied something. If you look at our culture, you see people that are very materialistic and also very competetive because we are trying to achieve the things we desire in life. I think that Americans are not completely like the characters in Brave New World, but I think that if we keep continuing on our path towards self-satisfaction we might eventually be like the characters in Brave New World who don't know what self-denial is. As Americans our whole life is based around suceeding at work or school so that we can use that sucess/money to get the objects,(new homes and new cars)that we want. Just like the characters in Brave New World we are fixated on being the best and never looking bad in front of others...we constantly try to fit in and so in the process of trying to fit in we don't deny ourselves anything that we want. I think if Americans keep heading in this direction I think we will become more and more like the culture in Brave New World.
HKA response to KMR
I definitely agree with your statement that as Americans we are always trying to fit into this mold and throughout this process we lose a little bit of who we are everytime we participate in an activity just because we see that everyone else is doing it. I think that right now we are a lot like Brave New World; we buy things based off of what we see others around us getting. At school if you look at how most girls dress and the way they do thier hair, you can see a trend. Whether it is the brand of clothes most people wear to the monotonous hairstyle that all girls do. We are already sacrificing our own individuality and creativity to be comfortable with those around us.
Prompt #1
Well in this “Brave New World” I would have to say art just because the others really have no place in this world. Religion helps explain why we should act a certain way and gives the ultimate control of our lives to another being. For example, as people age and begin to die we don’t want to believe that that’s it. We want to be comforted by the thought that we will go to another place and that it’s a part of a larger plan. In their world though, there is no getting old, they are taught to accept death at a young age and if they stray and act out against society they will be exiled. But really do they even really think about anything other than sex and drugs? It certainly seemed that they had taken so much soma that deep thought was no longer available to them. So here religion really wouldn’t do much for them. Ford in this book is not at all like Lord. The Lord actually allows for deep thought, a way to see the world form more than just one angle, a way to accept the good and evil in the world. Ford is just a word. In the Brave new world religion was not sacrificed it was just not needed. Science is also not needed in this world because science and the development of such technology is what created the problems in the first place. Can technology go beyond creating life? It seems to me that once you are capable of playing God can you really just remake an ipod? No, you’re done and new science is no longer needed. Here, in this world art was the greatest sacrifice. Even though the people are probably too drugged up to read into the art they could at least have been able to realize its beauty. The people in this world are completely different than in our world and I believe this book was a warning on how far we can fall.
Response to SM
I agree that America has sub-consciously placed itself on this trajectory but I don’t think we will let ourselves get to the point of the Brave New World. We are now seeing that just because we can drive big USV’s and use gallons and gallons of gas doesn’t mean we should. We are changing our lifestyles now. This may not be because we all the sudden care about our problem with self-denial but the point is we are denying ourselves those luxuries. Also many Americans now have no choice due to the economy but to restrict themselves. Now many families are just trying to put food on the table. However, it will be interesting to see the change in people when the economy does improve.
Response to Prompt 1:
I think the greater price to pay for stability is definitely religion. Religion has been a part of our world and integrated in it for a very long time. Science and art came from religion itself. Art was first made to make stories about the gods or the pay respects to one god. And without religion, what would the big bang theory have to contend with? Science emerged from the questioning of the logic of religion.
Religion isn’t just about a “god” and following moral rules. True these tend to be important aspects, but I think of religion as more of just a belief in community. That sounds odd, but religion is about faith, whether it be in a higher being or now, and that communal sense of faith is what holds religion, and the people, together. Not having religion would be like taking away the one thing that people have in common. This could be good for individualism;, but I believe that people would suffer as a whole.
Also in Brave New World, the World Controllers, and especially Ford, were the substitute “religion.” Thanking Ford and saying “oh Ford” and remembering Ford as being so great and having so much faith in his long-standing values, made it seem like he was god-like. So even though there was stability in a sense, the whole aspect of religion couldn’t be completely removed from society.
In response to LWM:
Love your response, as usual. :)
I really like how you questioned if we even need religion in the future. That’s a reasonable question to ask for the world we live in. We have so much artistic expression, and technology is slowly taking over our world and out way of life. Is there going to be room for god next to the scientific discoveries in the future? I don’t really know. Maybe religion has fulfilled its requirements. Or maybe it will have soon. Not probably during our lifetime, because I think that at this stage in our evolution we aren’t prepared to give up this part of our lives. But it is definitely a possibility for the future.
LJW in response to prompt #1
From the "brave new world's" perspective I would believe that science is the greater price to lose to reach stability. However religion and art also have a place in society that is needed.
I feel science is the greater price to pay for this brave new world because science is how they are all developed. If it were not for science their world would not have been able to happen. Science is still a very large field of history that has not been fully developed, which might help explain more and advance their technological society. Science has and will continue to set us as humans aside from so many other living organisms that if it were to be taken away there would no longer be such an exponential growth in technology and discovering.
Art itself has its own price to pay, but I don’t feel it is as great as science. Art allows for individualism, which by the time of the new world, there no longer is a sense for individualism, because each person is developed by technology to perform certain actions and to live a certain life. However art would allow these people to see their society with a new point of view and admire all of its beauties.
Religion also has its price to pay. Religion allows for more diversity within a society. However religion has been around for years and not much has changed within any certain religion. Although it has not changed in a long time, it still has the ability to guide and act as a role model for multiple people and what they “believe”. However in this world people are not really able to comprehend things on their own, such as how to like and what the right thing to do is. If religion was offered in this new world there would be many things that contradict one another such as having sex just for fun, where as many religions find having sex before marriage a forbidden thing.
Overall, science, art and religion all have their own prices to pay, I feel science best suites a bigger loss for the “Brave New World”.
LJW In response to LWM’s response to KMR:
I agree with what you’re saying, with the fact that we are already starting to act as if we were the same at the Brave New World. However I feel your thought is great what about all of the people that don’t fit into just one set group. For example one could walk around Rock Bridge and distinguish, which group is which such as cheerleaders, jocks, Goths, and the black kids, but there are several people that hang out in multiple groups. Those types of people would not be accepted in the Brave New World. However I don’t agree with that you have to say about religions. Yes they are divided up from the state, but there are schools in which children are able to learn about religions, although they are private schools and cost more to send your children to. I also understand that people are supposed to keep their thoughts about religions to themselves, but not everyone goes by that, because people have the freedom of speech.
In response to your question “How then can anyone claim that our society is not on its way to the situation posed in Brave New World?” I agree that our society is becoming too reliant on technology, but I don’t feel that our society is losing its freedom or power. It is true that one day our world could resemble the Brave New World but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
LJW In response to LWM’s response to KMR:
I agree with what you’re saying, with the fact that we are already starting to act as if we were the same at the Brave New World. However I feel your thought is great what about all of the people that don’t fit into just one set group. For example one could walk around Rock Bridge and distinguish, which group is which such as cheerleaders, jocks, Goths, and the black kids, but there are several people that hang out in multiple groups. Those types of people would not be accepted in the Brave New World. However I don’t agree with that you have to say about religions. Yes they are divided up from the state, but there are schools in which children are able to learn about religions, although they are private schools and cost more to send your children to. I also understand that people are supposed to keep their thoughts about religions to themselves, but not everyone goes by that, because people have the freedom of speech.
In response to your question “How then can anyone claim that our society is not on its way to the situation posed in Brave New World?” I agree that our society is becoming too reliant on technology, but I don’t feel that our society is losing its freedom or power. It is true that one day our world could resemble the Brave New World but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
KAH to prompt #3
When the Savage says, "Nothing costs enough here," I thought that he was referring to the point that anybody in the brave new world can have anything they want whenever they want it. He wants people to cherish and value what they have rather than take it for granted. When he lashes himself with the whip, he wants to pay for his happiness and he does this in the most extreme ways. The Savage claims the right to be unhappy because he doesn't feel like he deserves to be happy because of what happened to his mom. He doesn't agree with the ideals of the brave new world and doesn't feel the need to obey the rules. He wants to set the people free and because the world controller will not allow this, he claims his right to be unhappy because nobody is truthfully happy in the brave new world. He wants people to be happy like the people on the reservation. Nobody can be happy if they don't have to work for anything.
KAH in response to GLS
I had a tough time deciding between answering prompt 1 and prompt 3. I chose 3 but completely agree with what you are saying about prompt 1. I, too think that religion is the greatest price to pay because all things come from religion, as you said. I think that religion provides a basis for a solid community and that we need religion to function. As you may be able to tell, I am religious so I think I have a tainted response. :)
Prompt #1:
While Art and Science are important aspects in a society, i think losing religion was the greatest sacrifice and loss. Stability is an important aspect in a community, but I think the community lost stability in itself when it rid itself of religion.
Every society in history has been based off of a religion of some sort. And in many cases religion was created to explain why things happened. The Greeks needed reasons to explain why the sun rose, or why crops failed. To feel a sense of control they created gods.
By creating these gods and feeling a sense of control this created stability in a community. The stability in the community in Brave New World wasn't real, it was more artificial. The community lacked a real feeling of stability that could comfort the citizens.
So by trying to create more stability in the community it seems like they really banned true stability, which is what it needs to be truly successful.
-CRK
In Response to GLS-
I thought you brought up an interesting point about how everything derived from Religion. If the society had not rid the citizens of religion i think everything else could have followed. And i think you had a good point. The fact that citizens had replaced God with Ford shows how important Religion is. Even though religion was banned it still seemed to soak into the society, just not in the typical way. And since Religion is what unites everyone together, or just a faith in something, and that the society lacked that i think that's why the characters we met in Brave New World felt so alone and secluded. The world had worked so hard on trying to make the community stable, that it let the people's need to belong slip through the cracks.
that last post was from -CRK
sorry
Jake B.
Prompt #1
Overall, sacrificing religion, art, and science are all a big sacrifice to society. I like what LWM said that religion lead to art which lead to science. So I have to say that religion would be the biggest sacrifice for society as it is the base of art and science. Personally, I couldn’t see how someone can live without a purpose. It seems like everyone believes there is a greater purpose to life whether atheist or not. The fact that people believe there is a greater purpose is good enough for me to believe that there is a creator, regardless of your religion. Simply ignoring this creator is against the “gut” of almost every human being. I believe that ignoring a creator is ignoring key emotions like love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, and self-control (“fruits of the spirit”). Even though the fruits of the spirit are a Christian idea; I believe the idea is universal throughout most religions. A life without love, joy, or goodness seems depressing and a waste. John couldn’t handle the idea of life without these fruits as Lenina seemed to have no patience or self-control when it came to having a relationship with John. John also couldn’t handle the concept the idea of soma (another example of lacking crucial “fruit”, self-control). Eventually, the lack of these fruits ultimately leads to the suicide of John. I also believe that art and science give humans a sense of purpose, but this is incomparable to the value of religion for society.
Jake B.
In response to KAV
We looked at the question in different views. I interpreted the question as which value would society miss today and you looked at it as which value would be the greatest sacrifice in “Brave New World”. I agree with how you separated the Lord with Ford and how Ford is just a word and Lord is so much more. I find your last statement also compelling. The people in “Brave New World” are different people than they are today. It makes me wonder if people in the early 1900’s read a book about today’s society if they would be as equally shamed or afraid as we are after reading the “Brave New World”.
Response to prompt #2
Americans nowadays are all about instant gratification. I think our society is on its way to being without self-denial. I don't know if we will ever get as extreme as the people in Brave New World but our society is definitely headed in that direction. Right now there are aspects of society that do allow people to be giving of themselves. For example, a lot of religions practiced today ask people to give up things. It seems as if, nowadays, that a lot of Americans don't practice religion as much anymore. People are becoming more materialistic with all of the advances in technology. As more cool gadgets are innovated and released, the more people want them and will go out and buy them. Americans are letting their desires get the best of them and aren't thinking of their priorities. So, I do believe that Americans are giving into more and more of their desires leading them to a society more like the one in Brave New World.
In response to B. Schill:
I liked your arguments and opinions on why you thought science was a greater price to pay. I can see where you're coming from that science is always changing and there are still new things to discover. I don't really know if I completely agree that it is the steepest price to pay. I know that science can explain a lot about the world around us but I think the differences in beliefs in religion can cause conflict as well. I mean look at the world around us today; a lot of war and instability in many countries is based on different religious beliefs. I know that the discoveries of religions have been set in stone but a lot of those beliefs are different and conflict with one another. I did like your arguments, I just can see stability being disturbed by religion in a more impacting way.
Prompt #5
John meant a lot of different things in the Brave New World. He represented the Savage society compared to the World State. So it was very sad when he killed himself at the end. i think John is searching for the answer. The anwer for which world is better or happier. He lived in both world; uncivilized and civilized, and preferred the way he used to live which is uncivilized, savage life. He believed that it was happier although he had feelings like temptation, anger, desire, and passion which does not exist in World State. He always questioned himself if the civilized life was better way to live a life. He saw his mom die at the hospital and was disgusted by the reaction the people of World State gave him. And he believed that it is better to have feelings like passion, love, and anger then to be emotionless and do what you are suppose to and take soma whenever you want to be happy. i think the most important message of the novel is which is ultimately better way to live? World State? where everyone is happy for what they do and where they are or Reservation, uncivilized life? where you have different kinds of emotions which does not exist in World State?
Throughout the book, the author questions which is better way to live at the end. even the director Mond himself kept all of banned books and understood where John's ideas come from. however, he still believed that the way of World State is better since it is where everyone is belived to be happy with soma and what they do.
PROMPT 1: I believe anything that can continue to thrive and advance without any rules will always hold the most value, which is why I believe art is too great a price to pay for any way of life. Science and religion were built upon rules—without a wrong and a right both subjects would cease to exist. If we look back in history, what we once believed to be right (at one time slavery was standard) or wrong (women shouldn’t be educated!) has changed so much. If the rules at which we measure such subjects can’t stay constant, how can we trust to live lives by them? Where the blacks and whites of Science and Art mix to a murky grey, the vibrant possibilities of art become even clearer. We aren’t going to know every condition in lifetimes to come, but with the open-ended nature of art, we can be assured that the best will be achievable. I think proof of the confinements of the more structured subjects comes in Prompt three. John was thrust from one extreme world to another—he never found a place of balance. I think he believes in a yin and yang mentality; for every one thing there has to be an opposite for it to exist. Sickened by the empty contentment of his surroundings, he claims the right to be “unhappy” because he believes otherwise he can never truly find happiness. However, such a rigid belief system doesn’t leave leeway for the reality of life. Human prosperity isn’t about balancing out the equation of life or following the right rituals—which is why John ends with a miserable death.
-K.W.Y.
in response to smt:
Yes, we are becoming more materialistic because of the environment we are put in. So many technologies are developing everyday and people are full of new ideas which leads to creation of new devices which leads to more stuff that people wants.
Americans are letting their desried get the best of them but what are their priorities? of course it would be different by person by person. but there should be a priority that most Americans share. And do you think if we keep the religious spirit going, that America will not becoming materialistic and like one in Brave New World and that the religion and religious belief is the key to not become like people in Brave New World?
In response to prompt 1:
When it comes to the sacrifices that were made for the stability of society, I see the logic in what Mond presented to John. I happen to disagree with it, however I did find it interesting how Huxley broke down and analyzed the instability of society, and to isolate art, science, and religion as the instigators of that instability, and is something I would have never thought to equate to the instability of society. Personally, I think that stability is not fully worth giving up those three things. Art, it is a facet of expression for so many people in this world. It comes in so many forms, and expresses feelings from extreme elation, to severe depression. Science, so many advancements in so many ways have occurred, and in so many ways have these advancements benefited us. Religion, so many people hold religion close to their hearts, for many it is always a safe haven to turn to, and even great nations have been formed off of its principles. I recognize that each aspect has been cause for unrest in society; however, I believe that as a whole, those elements seem to me in my mind too intertwined in society to remove. I realize that in the centre that time has passed in which those regards have slowly been weeded out of the culture, but even at that extreme level, elements of each keep resurfacing with certain individuals (specifically the ones exiled), which goes to show that none of these will fully be removed from society because of the deep roots they possess, and the way in which they can pertain to virtually any aspect of life.
In response to HKA:
I do agree with you’re connection between Americans and the culture of BNW, but to play devil’s advocate in this instance, one could say that Americans are practicing self-denial in a sense. In order to achieve these successes, or to attain material objects, people give up time that could be spent toward enjoyment, or something of the sort, while they spend time working to get to that point. In fact Americans could be considered to be practicing self-denial to the extreme if one looks at it in that light. Overall it seems like people deny themselves one thing to attain another. This cycle is fueled by people’s greed; however, each person does decide their priorities, and oftentimes gives up personal pleasantries. For example, how many times do students spend time doing homework to get a good grade, rather than doing something they would enjoy more? Isn’t that self-denial in some form? So, it really depends on how human greed, and what results of it is classified. Is it getting to that result by sacrificing other things considered self-denial? Or is the greed factor too much, and reason to disqualify the sacrifice made to attain something out of greed from being considered self-denial?
KWY in response to SM
I think because all three subjects (art, science, and religion) impact different people’s lives in different priorities, this question will always be arguable three different ways. However, I don’t agree that a society without religion would be superficial. Each subject, I think, is a belief system of its own—they each act as a way for someone to find deeper meaning in life. In fact, religion could be arguably the most superficial. Essentially, it is a faith that determines a person’s destiny depending on how closely their life follows a specific set of rules. The statement “I am a Christian” is one that is almost directly translated into “I have morals” in today’s society. But what of the people who can’t follow the specific rules? If you were yourself but with a different sexual orientation, could you still be a Christian? Could you still be a “good” person with “morals”?
I found it very strange how John claimed his right to be unhappy. While the World State did conflict with many of his views, it was weird that he would strive for unhappiness. After I thought about it, however, I realized that the reason to be unhappy is so that when one is happy it is more meaningful. It is by working for it, not just the instant gratification of the World State, that one feels the relief and satisfaction of true happiness. The World State’s version of happiness doesn’t actually make them happy only content. By living is a world without misery, people become accustom to this”happiness” and it holds little significance in their lives. It seems that in the World State physical pleasure has been mislabeled as happiness, considering all the soma and sex. These feelings are only a shallow scrape at what happiness truly is. It is for this reason that Helmholtz feels discontent. While according to their society he is at the top and should be ecstatic, he feels that there is no meaning in his work and is searching for significance. At the end of the book, John’s whipping of himself seems to be an extreme attempt to punish himself and keep his humanity from being engulfed into the ways of the World State. He must isolate himself to try and uncondition himself from seeking out instant gratification if he wants any hope of finding something meaningful. Ultimately with his isolation compromised by the constant appearance of curious members of the World State, he is unable to deal it especially with them demonstrating their instant gratification as he punishes himself and commits suicide.
One of the most interesting things that I noticed when Mond declare that art, science, and religion as the causes of instability was that it seems that the World State worships science as a religion. The entire possibility of such an advanced society, as what is evident in Brave New World, is for science to be allowed to run rampant and transcend morality. They sacrifice the very thing that their society is based upon. In my opinion is almost a good thing that this society has sacrificed science. If science were allowed to continue along the path that it has it would further the disgusting society that they living by creating some hybrid between the World State and Wall-e.
Question #1:
Art: Art is something that I don't believe that I could ever sacrifice in the name of stability. Art is a very general statement that encompasses so much. It could be the art of music, movies, paintings, drawings, buildings... many things can be expressed as an art. And when you outlaw something as general as art, you outlaw human expression. The world would be a bleak and uninteresting place without it.
Science: Science is the backbone of progress, in my opinion. Science inspires wonder and exploration, from revealing how the tiniest things in the world work to exploring the unbelievable vastness of space. Without science, there can be no technological advancement. Without technological advancement, there can be no discovery of the unknown. Without discovery of the unknown, there can be no progress.
Religion: It is my belief, even though I consider myself a Christian, that religion starts more wars and kills more people than it aims to save. The Muslim Conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples of religious wars. I believe that I would be willing to sacrifice religion for stability's sake.
JLS in response to Jake B.
You said, "So I have to say that religion would be the biggest sacrifice for society as it is the base of art and science. Personally, I couldn’t see how someone can live without a purpose."
Personally, I don't believe that religion is the basis of art and science. In fact, I believe that science is a completely different tangent that spawned almost to, for the lack of a better word, combat religion. This is not to say that science discounts religion or vice versa. And as for "how someone can live without a purpose," I believe that it is up to us to make our own purpose, not have it handed to us by some all powerful, all knowing being.
Prompt 3:
As an outsider to the world state, I believe that all the experiences that John absorbs from the world state up till his tragic ending states a valuable message on human intention and nature. With all the powerful technologies that the world state possessed it makes sense that the world state’s intention was to form an enduring society that resisted deterioration and displacement. This reflects the idea that was constantly being talked about throughout the book that the world states main goal was for the sake of stability. However this intention backfires on John as he experiences the lives of the citizens as so regular and lackluster. With things like soma technology that allowed society to avoid any form of distress or tension, it comes down to a life that is just too easy. There was a point in the novel where Mond talks about how most of the jobs of the world state citizens weren’t really required, but were simply there to keep the citizens busy and have a sense of purpose. When John says “Nothing costs enough here” I believe he was referencing to this very idea that life in the world state has come down to be just to easy, leaving no point for the sake of humanity. Johns quote addresses the idea that nobody in the world state conceives of any purpose for existence beyond their own fulfilled gratifications. As a result of this we see John’s excursion to the lighthouse with his relentless whippings in search of a purpose. I believe Johns unhappiness from the world state and his search for human nature encourages John to go on with these whippings to feel a sense of hardship. I find it in human nature to always want to challenge you, or find some kind of motive or incentive for improving by taking the hard way out. Since the world state provided such an easy route to gratification that served no purpose, John seemed to have gone to the lighthouse to search for this human purpose by challenging his desires and motives and holding on to his values as an outsider to ultimately feel a sense of purpose.
MAM
Response to mm_60052
“The reason to be unhappy is so that when one is happy it is more meaningful. It is by working for it, not just the instant gratification of the World State, that one feels the relief and satisfaction of true happiness. The World State’s version of happiness doesn’t actually make them happy only content”
I totally agree with everything you said here. It just makes sense how the happiness that the world state is trying to establish on its citizens totally discredits the very idea of being human. The best and most fulfilled form of happiness comes when one finds there happiness meaningful. The Soma serves to act out this superficially fulfilled happiness that lacks the great qualities of true happiness that come from a sense of accomplishment or when one escapes their unhappiness. From what you said in your post I think you too agree with the idea that John wanted to find some sort of purpose and true happiness that comes from taking the “hard way” out. In doing so John was simply trying to search for true happiness and avoid the superficially fulfilled happiness that the world state citizens were so used.
MAM
1. I think that science, art and religion are an important part of society and should not be replaced so that stability is brought to the world. The ability to think for yourself is one of the greatest attributes that a human possesses. When you take that away I don’t think that the world would be a fully functional place. Without independent thinkers I think that the world would be very boring place that I personally would not want to live in. I think that religion is a very important social aspect for most people especially in America. Without religion many people wouldn’t have a higher figure to look to and try to “impress” that figure. Many people do actions in the name of religion so that they can move on in either their afterlife or their next life. In the art world I am personally not a big fan, but I do think that art is a very important way to express your ideas no matter how radical they are. Without art I don’t thin that the world would be the same today, you need those Picasso’s and Michelangelo’s that created the beautiful art that inspired thousands of people to pursue that. A world without arts would not be a world that I would want to live in and would not be something that I would be willing to sacrifice to bring stability to the world.
Jon Clark
Promt #2
John is an interesting character, and by declaring the right to be unhappy he is saying he is still searching for happiness. In the first amendment of the constitution it states that we have the right to persue happiness. This is exactly what the World State was giving these people, happiness at the cost of religion, science, and art which are all forms of free thinking. Here in modern America, we are continually told that we need to acheive success in our lives to be happy, acheive the American Dream!
We don't really have the ability to acheive the happiness that people living under the World State could, but America is definately heading in that direction. We just talked about on March 10th that movies are getting more and more violent and less sensored to fulfill that shock factor and to get the adrenaline pumping which is similar to the violent passion surrogate without the reprocussions of being violent. It fulfilled that need to be violent. The biggest example and the most ignored would be pornography. Here are some statistics that I looked up on it (http://www.internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html): Every second - $3,075.64 is being spent on pornography. Every second - 28,258 Internet users are viewing pornography. Every second - 372 Internet users are typing adult search terms into search engines. The United States is home to 89% of all pornographic web pages in the entire world. The World State Society was based on no self denial, and people were having meaningless sex left and right to fulfill that "need" that many people have. That is exactly what the idea of pornography is about, watching people have meaningless sex as entertainment to fulfill that "need" that many people have. Both the World State and the United States have similar forms of entertainment which are all about non self-denial and we are living that reality, it just society that makes us blind to reality.
When you live with these forms of entertainment to make oneself happy, you sacrifice joy. Happiness is a positive emotion that hopefully everyone has felt, but joy is a state of mind. Joy is what provides hope when you are happy or sad, angry or compassionate. No matter what emotion you are feeling you can still be joyful. John lost his joy in the end and as a result, took his own life. The people of the World State really have never experienced joy because their too focused on happiness that they feel that they don't need joy. That's what the Islands were for, people who were looking for more than just happiness. Those people were looking for joy.
I agree very much with one anonymous poster. Their argument is pretty much the same one that I relied on heavily in my oral presentation from a while back. Americans continue to produce more and more technology regardless of a potentially negative future impact. While this is great for the modern day, it just means a worse life is looming for us all when we are older. Americans seem to be destined for a life similar to the one portrayed in this book if they continue to sacrifice future life quality for temporary elite status in the technology industry. Wow, as I'm reading their full post, they even used the same exact argument as myself with the whole iPhone thing. I wish the blogger wasn't anonymous because I am very interested in who had my exact same thoughts.
After finishing Brave New World, I have many scattered thoughts about the book. Society in this book is very, very different but the author had it well thought out. People's minds seem to be in a wasteland, similar to Wall-E's surroundings in the movie Wall-E. The only difference is this books concepts are on the 6 inch playing field between the characters head, and not in a construction dump. This book explains outside or less common thought processes very well by putting people with those beliefes onto such a playground, so to speak. I'm not sure if I enjoyed this book as much as I could of because the whole time I seemed to be thinking about how much I would hate it if America came to this point because of failure to operate cohesively as a nation, with individual beliefs and common goals. I am glad I read this because it taught me that there are always other schools of thought and not to judge. I would recommend this book to others.
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